Calhoun's Universe 25 - true or false?

[Didacus]

Anyone familiar with Universe 25 experiment?

https://www.victorpest.com/articles/what-humans-can-learn-from-calhouns-rodent-utopia

I would see direct similarities with this experiment and humans in 'modern' and 'rich' society.

If this is truly applicable to humans, our current course is extinction

Papa called it!  He termed it 'Culture od Death' and boy was he right!

There are many intepretations of the experiment, a quick search on youtube or any other established sote will provide several different takes and explanations.

Quote;

 

Though wildly controversial when first made public, Calhoun's theory has raised concern over the years that the social breakdown of Universe 25 could ultimately serve as a metaphor for the trajectory of the human race.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Didacus

[Winchester]

People in crisis are also capable of atrocity. 

It was once considered wrong to rob your neighbor, but you could get on the highway and rob foreigners or aliens.

[Didacus]

But what is strange about universe 25 is that THERE WAS NO CRISIS.

The mice had everything they needed, space, food, comfort, everything.  Yet they still invariably drive themselses to exctintion.(umiverse 25 is the most famous experiment, the 25th rendition, but in ALL cases the mice drive themselves to extinction).

[Winchester]

It seems that it implies that lack of crisis is dangerous.

Animal instinct probably "knows" there will be a crisis at some point. Animals are zero sum players. Humans can think their way out of that.

[Didacus]

37 minutes ago, Winchester said:

It seems that it implies that lack of crisis is dangerous.

Animal instinct probably "knows" there will be a crisis at some point. Animals are zero sum players. Humans can think their way out of that.

Are you so certain of that?

 

There are many similarities.  Take for instance the behavorial sink.  The mice all gathered in a single area ans jammed themselves there even though there was ample space in alcoves beside them.  The mice seemed to prefer proximity to each other over their own well-being.

In humans, people run to the internet and 'research' awnsers to their anxieties, but their 'research' is actually seeking like minded individuals to cather their anxieties, and don't care for any facts or otherwise.  They value companionship over reality or facts.  That is a counter to the theory that 'we shouldn't worry 'cause humans can think their way out of problems.'.

The point being that even though the capability to think through a problem may be there, humans may choose not to, prefering instead relationships eveb though unhealthy (even detrimental) over any fact or even oportunity that would be beneficial.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Didacus

[KnightofChrist]

3 hours ago, Didacus said:

Anyone familiar with Universe 25 experiment?

https://www.victorpest.com/articles/what-humans-can-learn-from-calhouns-rodent-utopia

I would see direct similarities with this experiment and humans in 'modern' and 'rich' society.

If this is truly applicable to humans, our current course is extinction

Papa called it!  He termed it 'Culture od Death' and boy was he right!

There are many intepretations of the experiment, a quick search on youtube or any other established sote will provide several different takes and explanations.

Quote;

 

Though wildly controversial when first made public, Calhoun's theory has raised concern over the years that the social breakdown of Universe 25 could ultimately serve as a metaphor for the trajectory of the human race.

The mice had all the common/shared shelter, food and water needed, but no individuality, no meaning to life really, whatever meaning a life of a mouse has, nothing else really to do save to eat and drink. 

The cases of the beautiful males and aggressive females does seem similar to current Western Society.

[Winchester]

1 hour ago, Didacus said:

Are you so certain of that?

 

There are many similarities.  Take for instance the behavorial sink.  The mice all gathered in a single area ans jammed themselves there even though there was ample space in alcoves beside them.  The mice seemed to prefer proximity to each other over their own well-being.

In humans, people run to the internet and 'research' awnsers to their anxieties, but their 'research' is actually seeking like minded individuals to cather their anxieties, and don't care for any facts or otherwise.  They value companionship over reality or facts.  That is a counter to the theory that 'we shouldn't worry 'cause humans can think their way out of problems.'.

The point being that even though the capability to think through a problem may be there, humans may choose not to, prefering instead relationships eveb though unhealthy (even detrimental) over any fact or even oportunity that would be beneficial.

"Can" and "will" aren't synonyms. And I didn't say not to worry.
 

[Didacus]

21 minutes ago, Winchester said:

"Can" and "will" aren't synonyms. And I didn't say not to worry.
 

Sorry if i misconstrued your intents.  Was not intentional.

[Winchester]

3 minutes ago, Didacus said:

Sorry if i misconstrued your intents.  Was not intentional.

Clear.

I was all ready to go to the mat.

I need to remember this isn't Twitter.

[Didacus]

2 hours ago, Winchester said:

Clear.

I was all ready to go to the mat.

I need to remember this isn't Twitter.

Oh.. well if its a boxing match ya want let's have at it ol' chum!

[Winchester]

10 minutes ago, Didacus said:

Oh.. well if its a boxing match ya want let's have at it ol' chum!

At some point, but let's not force it here.

I'm hesitant to see the test as prophetic, although it's tempting. But it is certainly a cautionary tale. I reckon that's close to as you see it.

[chrysostom]

Most of the Bible, particularly I'm thinking of the Old Testament, reminds us how easily human nature can screw up a good thing. Thankfully actual extinction is not in the cards, according to God's promise, which I believe. It doesn't mean a lot of us can't drive ourselves mighty close to the edge. Barring a imminent Second Coming all of us are going to die ahead of the Resurrection, but enough of us will have enough kids to keep it all going.

[Didacus]

I find it interesting that no homosexual behavior is noticeable in the healthy portion of the experiment, that is to say when the population increases and everything seems to be going well.

Once typical male and female roles are altered or left behind is when everything really goes wrong: violence, detachment and ughh.. rape.

Once the mice population stops caring for procreation and basic family unit, everything goes downhill.

Its frightening when seeing what the western world has made of the core family unit.  We have sucg a detachment to the family unit now that terms such as 'birth person' are gaining acceptance... if we follow suit to universe 25, the future is very bleak indeed.

[ArciMoto]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:41 AM, Didacus said:

But what is strange about universe 25 is that THERE WAS NO CRISIS.

The mice had everything they needed, space, food, comfort, everything.  Yet they still invariably drive themselses to exctintion.(umiverse 25 is the most famous experiment, the 25th rendition, but in ALL cases the mice drive themselves to extinction).

mice are not scientifically sentient,... IOW lack the "talents" to grasp the big picture

till recently people for the most part also are not scientifically sentient,... consider the human analog of the mice universe experiment "easter island"

https://www.history.com/topics/south-america/easter-island

at university had a professor spark my interest in climate science because he mentioned to me that humanity is likewise doing a large scale mice universe experiment 

seems so far for the most part people still are not scientifically sentient,... and don't grasp the knock on effects of burning various hydrocarbon fuels like: coal, methane, gas, diesel, etc.

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by ArciMoto

[Didacus]

Arci - seems that the majority of what you post circle around global warming...

What would be your thoughts on universe 25 from a social point of view?

[ArciMoto]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:42 AM, Didacus said:

Anyone familiar with Universe 25 experiment?

https://www.victorpest.com/articles/what-humans-can-learn-from-calhouns-rodent-utopia

I would see direct similarities with this experiment and humans in 'modern' and 'rich' society.

 

23 hours ago, Didacus said:

Arci - seems that the majority of what you post circle around global warming...

What would be your thoughts on universe 25 from a social point of view?

 

I've always been interested in trying to understand the big picture,... and as I see things, man made climate is humanities biggest problem

this is because life on earth has evolved to live w/ in a narrow specific set of conditions AND when the conditions change dramatically there will be big problems

consider the average human body has a normal temperature of 98.6 degrees,... 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/body-temperature-what-is-and-isnt-normal/

if the average human body temp is just a couple of degrees warmer (i.e. a fever) and the fever persists,... it is a sign of a medical infection

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326175#causes

since you brought up the topic of experiment 25,... as I see things the "social" aspect you focus on, is actually just another symptom of a much bigger "infection" problem

IOW the universe experiment 25 is a small scale model of what actually happened to the people who lived AND basically killed themselves off after the population grew too large for the amount of space/resources-on-hand

as I see things if the objective is avoid repeating what happened in the universe experiment 25 AND on easter island,... it is necessary to first understand what the problem is

consider the rodents in experiment 25 AND the humans on easter island,... one reason both these groups walked of a cliff (IOW killed them selves off) is because they were not aware of their surrounds

I mention this because one talent I developed in pilot training is "situational awareness" and a belief in the OODA loop (which was developed by the military to keep pilots from being killed off)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

point being if humanity wants to stay alive and avoid what happened to universe 25 AND to the people on easter island,... as I mentioned the first step is understand what the problem is

as I see things after attending a "catholic" science and faith conference a few years back

https://shop.catholic.com/catholic-answers-conference-2018-faith-science-mp3/

and lurking on various internet forums to see what others have to say,... sadly IMHO catholics and other people who place an importances in faith, don't have the scientific "talents" nor an interest in the basic science,... nor see how the science relates to basic "catholic" theology (which is why I outlined how the issues are related in the thread about St Aquinas)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Didacus]

20 minutes ago, ArciMoto said:

... sadly IMHO catholics and other people who place an importances in faith, don't have the scientific "talents" nor an interest in the basic science,... nor see how the science relates to basic "catholic" theology (which is why I outlined how the issues are related in the thread about St Aquinas.

 

 

 

 

There is no contradiction between faith and science.

PS - I am a professional engineer, no trouble with facts or science here. 

[ArciMoto]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:37 AM, Didacus said:

There is no contradiction between faith and science.

sadly there can be "false" faith AND belief in a "false" god,... which is how come things get really screwed up

 

said another way the end of the world (as we know it) is near AND will become something akin to a "universe experiment 25"  living hell because "useful idiots" are doing the devils work

...science uses the language of math AND strives to be "exact" when looking at cause-and-effect natural phenomena,... BUT to understand religion one has to keep in mind that its purpose/goal is to convey a universal message/warning about human nature

 

as for the "christian" bible (the OT in particular),... people have to realize it is an anthology of oral traditions from across the middle east, which were developed along trade routes that spanned the eastern mediterranean, the arabian peninsula and egypt

 

given that "oral" traditions are stories passed down from generation, inevitably the stores were "tweaked" based upon on who was telling them and under what circumstances,... as well as to whom they were being told to,... take for example consider the epic of gilgamesh vs the genesis flood narrative

 

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/influence-gilgamesh-bible

 

oral traditions "stories" are not necessarily intended to be taken literally BUT rather they are a means to convey certain messages and to encourage thought and discussion

 

consider the teachings of St Thomas Aquinas who is considered to be the greatest theologian of the Roman Catholic Church and basically said, "temptation which comes from the enemy takes the form of a suggestion"

 

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4041.htm

 

this theological framework is useful when pondering social order collapse because it explains the actions of "useful idiots" (doing the devils work)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

 

 

note a solid catholic theological understanding is very useful to see that human beings tend toward hubris and self destruction (often invoking gods name for some selfish reason,... like "for the love of money")

 

https://publish.twitter.com/?query=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FRightWingWatch%2Fstatus%2F1440732888127791115&widget=Tweet

 

 

Quote

 

Christians who have a strong belief in a divine Jesus may feel reasonably safe from the distortions, caricatures, and demeaning of him that we see among entertainers and postmodern scholars. But there are more subtle traps within the Church itself that snare many because they are set by preachers and teachers whom many trust.

You do not have to go far on television or the Internet—or perhaps in your own community—to find a Christian preacher who will tell you that Jesus wants you well and wealthy. This unorthodox version of Jesus' gospel is referred to as "prosperity theology" or the "health and wealth" gospel.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/articles/theology/prosperitytheology.html

 

 

the "prosperity gospel" at its core is all about the worship of money and material goods (which jesus gave his disciples warnings/teachings about) AND looking at the science, we see consumption of material goods is the cause of lots of environmental damage

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/consumers-have-a-bigger-impact-on-the-environment-than-anything-else-study-finds

 

anyway people who normally don't see a need or use for religion (AND science) should reconsider their outlook because unless man made climate skeptics/deniers (many of whom pay lip service to the importance in "faith" in god) are converted to believe,... humanity will not be able to prevent unnecessary suffering
 

the parable of the vineyard owner,... is a theological way to view the topic of “Calhoun's Universe 25” and “climate change”


...a landowner set forth a vineyard with great care and lavish attention

he then entrusted it to tenant farmers 

at harvest time, he sought his share of the produce 

yet instead of giving the owner what was due him, the tenant farmers refused, ridiculing, beating, and even killing the servants sent to collect his share 

they end by killing the owner’s own son

when jesus asks his audience what they thought the owner would do in response, they replied that he would put the men to a wretched death and lease his vineyard to other tenants who would give him the produce at the proper time

obviously, they did not realize that in the parable the landlord was actually describing them,... and that such a judgment would be upon them unless they repented

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21:33-46&version=NCB

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hakutaku]

On 9/13/2021 at 4:42 PM, Didacus said:

Anyone familiar with Universe 25 experiment?

Yes.  The actual science is rather poor, despite the fame.

https://www.gwern.net/Mouse-Utopia

Some points to consider:

• There were at least 24 other "universes" but Calhoun never published what happened to them.  His publications around "universe 25" are not written in a scholarly way, leaving out many details.  Indeed, his papers do not describe the famous population collapse, only a slight population decline which is extrapolated to a collapse in the future.
• Calhoun performs no post-collapse analysis of the rats to rule out non-social causes, e.g. genetic problems due to inbreeding or disease.
• Some researchers attempted to reproduce his experiments, but did not observe collapse.  They achieved higher, stable, population densities by starting with a more diverse set of rats.

• Other researchers have pointed out that the "beautiful ones" effect can be attributed to the habitat design.  The most aggressive male rats were able to defend the single-entrance "apartments" and effectively keep a harem of the "beautiful ones" sequestered from the rest of the habitat.

[Didacus]

Haku - i would like to know more... any links to the other studies you mention???