Ramblings

[Sojourner]

Hiya, peeps,
Just wanted to run a couple of thoughts past y'all on some things I've been mulling over for a while. I’ve been thinking a lot over the past several months about the whole concept of Incarnation, of God becoming man and the ramifications that has on our relationship with God and on justification.

One of the things I’ve been thinking is that the Incarnation affirms the goodness of Creation, and the goodness of the bodies God gave us. Not that this raises the material creation to a higher place than what it possessed before the Incarnation, but rather that it affirms what has always been true about it -- that it is good.

I first started thinking about this when I was initially exploring Catholicism, because the Catholic faith is very sensual … everywhere we turn we are able to experience the mystery of faith in a very physical way. We hear bells, smell incense, kneel, cross ourselves, take the Body and Blood of Christ into our mouths … in all these ways our bodies are integral parts of the practice of our faith. We understand the truth of the Gospel in and through our bodies … spiritual truth and grace is communicated via physical means.

At the same time, I’ve been thinking a lot about justification, in part because of an ongoing conversation I was having/am having with a Protestant friend. For most of my life, I was Presbyterian, very reformed, and as I started studying Catholicism one of the major areas I focused on was that of justification. To go from “no works are necessary for salvation, only faith” to “works are integrally combined with faith, and both are necessary for salvation” is a big step. As I studied, I became convinced that the Catholic position on justification has better biblical foundation, and this was a major step in my conversion.

As I’ve continued thinking on this, I’ve been pondering whether most Protestant teaching on justification -- in addition to not adequately encompassing the fullness of Scripture and of historical Christian belief -- also doesn’t do justice to who we are as people, as beings created by God to have both body and spirit.

I'm thinking that there's a lack of recognition in this teaching that not only are our souls redeemed, but also our bodies -- we will be reunited with our bodies after death. Redemption encompasses the whole of who we are, body and spirit, and so salvation requires the assent of the whole person – not only by the assent of our wills through faith, but also by the assent of our bodies through works.

If this is true, don’t Protestant definitions of justification that deny the necessity of works for salvation also deny God’s redemption of our whole persons? Don't they deny the essential goodness of the physical creation by denying that the physical is a necessary part of salvation?

What do you guys think of this? In thinking of justification teachings, I'm mainly thinking of Reformed doctrines, but I think most Protestant teaching about salvation is that I have to do nothing, i.e., there's no physical component to salvation.

[Sojourner]

Did anyone have any thoughts? Do you all think I'm crazy? :skitzo:

Be honest ... I can take it ...

[phatcatholic]

sojourner, do you still have the response i gave you from when this was a private discussion? if so, u should post it here. i think i accidently deleated it.....

[Sojourner]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 17 2004, 03:59 PM'] sojourner, do you still have the response i gave you from when this was a private discussion? if so, u should post it here. i think i accidently deleated it..... [/quote]
I do. Here are phatcatholic's thoughts from when I asked him about it in a PM:

[quote]you are correct in stating that the Incarnation should be viewed as an event that has made a profound impact on how we view the material world. afterall, how can our bodies and the material things of this world be so horribly depraved if God chose to become man on earth? don't get me wrong, God humbled Himself to take on human flesh. but, he is not humiliated by this experience. by taking on flesh and dwelling among us he did many things:

1. He became THE example of how to glorify one's body
2. He revealed to us through his life the many ways in which God works through the collaborative effort of the material and spiritual to bring us closer to Him
2. He provided the path through which we obtain the glorification of our own body by sacrificing His own glorious body on the Cross

i would make the disctinction however that, although the material world is given more validity as a both a tool for our salvation and a good creation of God by His Incarnation, the material world is not necessarily raised to a higher standard than what it possessed before the Incarnation. the result of the Incarnation is not the sudden raising of the body in general to new heights of importance but instead the affirming of what has always been true about it.

the body and the material world are good not b/c Jesus took on a body and lived in the material world, but b/c God the Father created all things, and He said they were good. they come from Him and he can create nothing that is not good.

as to how Reformed theology embraces or rejects this concept, we see in the "total depravity" doctrine of man a rejection of a fundamental truth. everything that God creates is good, yet the reformed theologians would have us believe that God creates evil things and then imposes his grace upon us against our will so that our movement towards him is not an act of love but a robotic reaction. thus, from a rejection of the goodness of creation we also have a rejection of the free will of man. this in turn leads to a belief in the inability of material things to institute God's grace to the believer. so, they reject most if not all of the seven sacraments, which by there very nature embrace the collaborative work of the material and spiritual: water and grace, oil and grace, laying on of hands and grace, etc.

as you can see, their inability to see the good in what God has created has far reaching implications, both upon their stance on other issues and even on the state of their very souls (remember, sacraments are meant to be sure instruments through which we receive justification and ultimate salvation--but they reject these)

for more information about this, see the [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728"][b]Salvation, Justification, and Predestination entry[/b][/url] in the reference section, particularly the subheadings regarding "Predestination" and "Total Depravity and Free Will." also see the "Calvinism" subheading of the [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=8772"][b]Non-Catholic Groups: Christian entry[/b][/url]
[/quote]

[StColette]

awesome job phat !! as always

[phatcatholic]

hehe, thanks



































bbaaaaaaahhhhhhh

[StColette]

[img]http://www.dfexchange.ca/images/emoticons/sheep.gif[/img] hehehe