Balthazor Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 they also have LUMINOUS JOYFUL and GLORIOUS mysteries......seems like the happy outweighs the sad three to one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='Balthazor' date='Dec 8 2004, 10:18 PM'] they also have LUMINOUS JOYFUL and GLORIOUS mysteries......seems like the happy outweighs the sad three to one [/quote] I was just making a point that even the rosary can't be held up as a shining example of happiness within the catholic church. Though I'd definitely give it to you on the Eucharist. Nobody pointed that out though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 why exactly wouldn't you focus on the passion? the greatest act of love ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthazor Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 and I really think that the Orthodox and the Catholic focus in on the Passion equally. Besides we have other prayers besides the Stations of the Cross. Like the Angelus. I don't know where you are getting off with this doom and gloom stuff..you are hanging around too many sad Catholics. Sure there is some doom and gloom....I mean they crucified Christ....that is sad..... but we sure don;t forget the Ressurrection and ascension. I really got to say that Orthodox and Catholic are about even here...but that is my opinion, I suppose you have yours too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 8 2004, 10:24 PM'] why exactly wouldn't you focus on the passion? the greatest act of love ever [/quote] Depends on the time of year. For Orthodoxy the passion isn't the thing we dwell on most of the year - it is the mercy of Christ and the love of the act. Though at Pascha we do spend a lot of time dwelling on the actual passion itself. I just don't think it is as ever present as it is in a Catholic church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='Balthazor' date='Dec 8 2004, 10:26 PM'] and I really think that the Orthodox and the Catholic focus in on the Passion equally. Besides we have other prayers besides the Stations of the Cross. Like the Angelus. I don't know where you are getting off with this doom and gloom stuff..you are hanging around too many sad Catholics. Sure there is some doom and gloom....I mean they crucified Christ....that is sad..... but we sure don;t forget the Ressurrection and ascension. I really got to say that Orthodox and Catholic are about even here...but that is my opinion, I suppose you have yours too. [/quote] And you've been to Orthodox liturgies, studied Orthodox theologies or practices, or talked to Orthodox priests to arrive at this conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthazor Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Dec 8 2004, 10:23 PM'] I was just making a point that even the rosary can't be held up as a shining example of happiness within the catholic church. Though I'd definitely give it to you on the Eucharist. Nobody pointed that out though. [/quote] You didn't give us time to....You are talking to someone who lives three minutes from a perpetual adoration chapel..... but that can go either way in joy and in sorrow. That is a very long explanation that I don't want to get into though. And who is dwelling on the Passion right now....Mel Gibson makes one movie and you think that that is it? that is only part of it.... It is ADVENT right not....we are waiting right now, anticipation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthazor Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Dec 8 2004, 10:27 PM'] And you've been to Orthodox liturgies, studied Orthodox theologies or practices, or talked to Orthodox priests to arrive at this conclusion? [/quote] I have done my own independent studies, I know Orthodox Ukranians...they don't seem any less sad or happy than the Catholics I know in talking about thier faith. I wish I could talk with an Orthodox priest about this stuff.....but where I am there are not many here. I just don't see where you get off saying that the emphasis of the Catholic Church is Sorrow and Pain...... I mean yeah, the Rule of Saint Benedict is kinda harsh to say the least.... but that is a piece..not a whole. I am sorry I just don't see it. Maybe I am a bad Catholic. Honestly I don't have it out for the Orthodox Church, one of my favorite kings was Orthodox. I just see a lot more similarities than differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='Balthazor' date='Dec 8 2004, 10:29 PM'] You didn't give us time to....You are talking to someone who lives three minutes from a perpetual adoration chapel..... but that can go either way in joy and in sorrow. That is a very long explanation that I don't want to get into though. And who is dwelling on the Passion right now....Mel Gibson makes one movie and you think that that is it? that is only part of it.... It is ADVENT right not....we are waiting right now, anticipation. [/quote] This has nothing to do with a movie. I've been Catholic for 20 years. I think I know the differences between the churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthazor Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 You must have been raised in a very depressing Parish or something. My Grandma had that "dying" kind of faith that you are talking about though......always suffering, sad sad sad sorrow. I used to be just like you, because of what I saw in a couple of old ladies who liked to always be sad I thought that the Catholic Church was all about Martyrdom and Suffering and PAin... God help me...... I wanted to leave. But then.... This Polish guy in a funny hat said something that I found comepletly Un-Catholic....."be not afraid" I opened my eyes and my ears. I started studying what it meant to be Catholic. I found out I was wrong, not the Church. Maybe you found despair, I found joy. And it reverberates through every fiber in my being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) spathariossa--- I would completly agree with you, We do focus on the Passion more than the Orthodox, and a WHOLE lot more than the protestants, I have studied the Orthodox Church, and I have studied there theology, and on that note, I completly agree with you. However, I think this is a good thing, I don't think the Orthodox focus nearly enough on the passion, or on the redemptive power of suffering. I find the Orthodox view to be far to focused on the here ( this is more in practice than in theology) than on the reality that the only purpose for life is to prepare for death. I live in houston and frankly the Catholic Church's here are so obsesed with "out reach" that they allow evangilzation to suffer. I studied for the preisthood with the Oblates of Mary Immaculate, their motto ( given them by there founder St Eugene) is this " I was called to evangalize the poor, and the poor where evangalized" that must be the Church's priority in all things, that is the Church's twofold mission to evangilize to the unbeliever, and bring the Sacraments to the Faithful. THe orthodox to not Focus on that enough. That being said I will say with out hesitation that By far the most reverant, wonderful liturgies I have ever attended where Orthodox, the Awe still present --of the Eucharist and of God the Father is moving in a way I cannot express, I would gladly die to get just a bit of that Awe back into the Catholic Church here in America. The Orthodox are still firmly entrenched in, as Wilhelmsen calls it, " the party of Enchantment. That is a wonderful gift, that is where the strength of the Orthodox lies. Edited December 9, 2004 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spathariossa Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 8 2004, 10:53 PM'] spathariossa--- I would completly agree with you, We do focus on the Passion more than the Orthodox, and a WHOLE lot more than the protestants, I have studied the Orthodox Church, and I have studied there theology, and on that note, I completly agree with you. However, I think this is a good thing, I don't think the Orthodox focus nearly enough on the passion, or on the redemptive power of suffering. I find the Orthodox view to be far to focused on the here ( this is more in practice than in theology) than on the reality that the only purpose for life is to prepare for death. I live in houston and frankly the Catholic Church's here are so obsesed with "out reach" that they allow evangilzation to suffer. I studied for the preisthood with the Oblates of Mary Emaculate, their motto ( given them by there founder St Eugene) is this " I was called to evangalize the poor, and the poor where evangalized" that must be the Church's priority in all things, that is the Church's twofold mission to evangilize to the unbeliever, and bring the Sacraments to the Faithful. THe orthodox to not Focus on that enough. That being said I will say with out hesitation that By farthe most reverant, wonderful liturgies I have ever attended where Orthodox, the Awe still present --of the Eucharist and of God the Father is moving in a way I cannot express, I would gladly die to get just a bit of that Awe back into the Catholic Church here in America. The Orthodox are still firmly entrenched in, as Wilhelmsen calls it, " the party of Enchantment. That is a wonderful gift, that is where the strength of the Orthodox lies. [/quote] I didn't mean to make it sound like I was condemning the Catholic church's history of outreach. One of my priests who lives for outreach and an Orthodox speaker we had come both love the Catholic Worker party. My priest has a poster for them on his wall and a picture of Dorothy Day. The man who came was a Catholic convert who had worked with her. I like the Catholic church a great deal, I just prefer Orthodoxy. And I like teasing all of you schismatics sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 8 2004, 09:57 PM'] if i came off as a "smarty pants" it was only because i resented your condescending attitude to us all just because we support a practice the Church has had for 2000 years. these are changes in discipline that you are referring to, and maybe i'm mistaken but developement of doctrine is different. developement of doctrine is elaboration regarding doctrines (teachings) the discipline of priestly celibacy has a theological and doctrinal backing. the discipline could be changed, but it shouldn't be. the earliest priests could be married in all the churches, roman and otherwise, but developement of doctrine showed how good it is for a priest to imitate Christ in a celibate life and devote all their energy to the church. that's an elaboration, not negating the possibility of married priests. based on that developement, the discipline was changed to require celibate priesthood. i don't know how the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger explained it, but based on what I've seen from Newman and such developement of doctrine can only be elaboration, it cannot negate previous doctrines. [/quote] The development of Doctrine doesn't negate anything that is true. It can't. Have you really read Newman's entire book on the Development of Christian Doctrine? I had a whole semester class on that book Al, and somehow I doubt that you've read it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Blazer I don't see where you are disagreeing with AL He said exactly what you just did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 8 2004, 11:18 PM'] Blazer I don't see where you are disagreeing with AL He said exactly what you just did. [/quote] lol . . . I didn't think I was disagreeing with him . . . Do you want me to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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