Neal4Christ Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 20 2005, 08:12 PM'] It's vague because the explicitness of the intention is not the same in each sacrament. [/quote] The specific sacrament I am concerned with is baptism. Sorry, I should have said that earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal4Christ Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Jan 20 2005, 08:15 PM'] In the systematic index of the Sources of Catholic Dogma, page 36, in the last paragraph, under the heading [The Sacraments] are accomplished with due matter and form, and under the subheading, "with the intention on the part of the minister of doing what the Church does," it lists paragraphs 672, 695, 854, 860, 1318, and 3004. I will list the sources these paragraphs are from in the following posts. [/quote] Thank-you very much. I appreciate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Council of Constance, paragraph 22. Decree for the Armenians, from the the Bull Exultate Deo, by Eugenius IV from the Council of Florence. The next two were the citations you gave from the Council of Trent. I looked over these sources and none of them explain explicitly what that intention is...but the first two, within their context, seem to indicate what I've explained above. Maybe what you need is a book explaining the Sacraments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 just a sec... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08069b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08069b.htm[/url] Maybe this has it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 [quote name='Neal4Christ' date='Jan 20 2005, 09:24 PM'] The specific sacrament I am concerned with is baptism. Sorry, I should have said that earlier. [/quote] I'm aware of that. I was just explaining the ambiguity of the phrase as it it used when referring to all of the sacraments. Let me see what I can drum up to further clarify. I can give you an explanation, but you are wanting something authoritative, rather than my own assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 [quote]The common doctrine now is that a real internal intention to act as a minister of Christ, or to do what Christ instituted the sacraments to effect, in other words, to truly baptize, absolve, etc., is required. This intention need not necessarily be of the sort called actual. That would often be practically impossible. It is enough that it be virtual. Neither habitual nor interpretative intention in the minister will suffice for the validity of the sacrament. The truth is that here and now, when the sacrament is being conferred, neither of these intentions exists, and they can therefore exercise no determining influence upon what is done. To administer the sacraments with a conditional intention, which makes their effect contingent upon a future event, is to confer them invalidly. This holds good for all the sacraments except matrimony, which, being a contract, is susceptible of such a limitation. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal4Christ Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Thanks. So it appears, if I understand that definition, that a minister needs to intend to baptize. What if a minister believes it is merely a symbol? Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Well...most priests are pretty lax in examining individual cases...but if you feel like there was a deficit in form, matter, or intention...insist on a conditional baptism at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal4Christ Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 I talked to a representative (I forgot her title) of our diocese today and she informed me that there is no problem with either mine or my wife's denomination in which we were baptized. She described intent as having the intent to baptize, that is the aim or goal of the celebrant/one being baptized. That is what my priest said, Apotheoun said, and other reliable folks. So I guess I finally got to the bottom of the issue. Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Hooray for Baptism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Woohoo! Baptism rocks! :cheer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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