2nd letter of John

[goldenchild17]

Any ideas? What's the history of this letter? Any possibility that he could've been writing to Mary, the Mother of God? She did go to live with John, but does this rule out him writing a letter to her?

I ask because a protestant brought it up and seemed to see Mary as a recipient of the letter. I thought this was interesting, so I wanted to check with you all. I mean, who is the Chosen Lady?

Or maybe it's the Church? Or some other lady? I want to explore the idea of it being Mary. Why? I don't know.

[goldenchild17]

err, never mind. All my commentaries say it was to a woman and her family, not Mary.

[HomeTeamFamily]

the little footnotes in my bible (NAB) says that the references to lady refer to a community with "children" who are its members

that being said, i suppose it could mean mary, as she is the mother of the Church.....and the letters of John deal with love.....i dunno could be an interesting allegory

[goldenchild17]

Of course it refers to her children, but I think it could allude to her spiritual children. It's probably too much of a stretch. But it was something to think about.

[phatcatholic]

NAB Introduction to the Second Letter of John:[list]Written in response to similar problems, the Second and Third Letters of John are of the same length, perhaps determined by the practical consideration of the writing space on one piece of papyrus. In each letter the writer calls himself "the Presbyter," and their common authorship is further evidenced by internal similarities in style and wording, especially in the introductions and conclusions. The literary considerations that link 2 John and 3 John also link them with the First Letter and the Gospel of John. The concern with "truth," christology, mutual love, the new commandment, antichrist, and the integrity of witness to the earthly Jesus mark these works as products of the Johannine school. The identity of the Presbyter is problematic. The use of the title implies more than age, and refers to his position of leadership in the early church. The absence of a proper name indicates that he was well known and acknowledged in authority by the communities to which he writes. Although traditionally attributed to John the apostle, these letters were probably written by a disciple or scribe of an apostle. The traditional place and date of composition, Ephesus at the end of the first century, are plausible for both letters. The Second Letter is addressed to "the chosen Lady" and "to her children." This literary image of a particular Christian community reflects the specific destination and purpose of the letter. Unlike 1 John, this brief letter is not a theological treatise but a reply to problems within the church. The Johannine themes of love and truth are used to support practical advice on Christian living. The Presbyter encourages community members to show their Christianity by adhering to the great commandment of mutual love and to the historical truth about Jesus. The false teaching present among them is a spiritualizing christology that may tempt some members to discount teachings about the incarnation and death of Jesus the Christ; cf 1 John 4:2. For their protection the Presbyter forbids hospitality toward unknown or "progressive" Christians to prevent their infiltration of the community. The Second Letter preserves the Johannine concerns of doctrinal purity and active love in the form of pastoral advice to a threatened community.
[/list]i'll let you know what my Navarre Commentary says when i get home....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

Yeah, I looked at my Navarre commentary already.

"The 'elect lady': probably a metaphor meaning a particular church of Asia Minor."

It being Mary was just a thought .

[HomeTeamFamily]

well....can all of the references in that book that would refer to that particular church be applied to mary?

i think its an interesting theory.....go with it and explore!! i dont want to steal your thunder

[goldenchild17]

Well I don't feel comfortable coming up w/novel ideas. If it was possible, then I'm sure it would've been studied more by someone much smarter than I ever will be.

But something interesting to note is the Greek rendering of the word for "Lady" used, which is "Kuria". I've heard that "Kuria" is a feminine proper name drawn from the word, "Kurious" which means:

1. he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
... a. the possessor and disposer of a thing
... ... 1. the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
... ... 2. in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
... b. is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
... c. this title is given to: God, the Messiah


If this is a specific woman, then it seems to be a pretty darn important woman. I don't know.

[StColette]

After reading 2John again one can get the feeling that John is writing to this woman to remind her of a commandment, which is one of love and charity.

5 But now, Lady, I ask you, not as though I were writing a new commandment but the one we have had from the beginning: let us love one another.
6 For this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, as you heard from the beginning, in which you should walk.

See in these verses, especially #6 John seems to be reminding her that she should do this. I highly doubt Mary would need a reminder to keep God's commandments

7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves that you do not lose what we worked for but may receive a full recompense.
9 Anyone who is so "progressive" as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.

John is warning this woman of those who do not believe that the Messiah was born. He warns her to keep strong in the belief that the Christ in fact was born.

[goldenchild17]

yeah, seems that way.

[StColette]

If one thinks about it, since John brought Mary into his home as his mother, then why would he be writing her a letter like this ? Well, of course if he were away or something he may have written her but would the subject matter involved in this letter been addressed to Mary ? I highly doubt it

[goldenchild17]

Yeah, I see the point. I guess I was just looking for something that isn't there. It definitely seems to refer to some other lady though.

[Theoketos]

Mary who is the new Zion is the New Eve and the Immaculate Conception is also at least the representation of the sinless church if not either or both the fullness the sinless church. Just so that we are clear.