Mary Co-Redemptrix(?)

[DonCamillo]

I saw that there was a movement in 2002, to have the Pope declare Mary co-redemtrix.
[url="http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/medtrix.htm"]http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/medtrix.htm[/url]

(It would be the 5th Marian dogma, according to the site.)

My question is:
Is it now a Church dogma?

The reason I am asking is because I saw in another forum someone
attacking the Catholic Church on this.
I am curious to know if it is part of the "official" Catholic doctrines.

Thanks

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate is doctrine, but not yet dogma. Though it is still certain.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 16 2005, 08:29 PM'] Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate is doctrine, but not yet dogma. Though it is still certain. [/quote]
this is incorrect. a dogma is "a teaching of the Church, held as revealed by God and therefore binding on the faithful, that is revealed implicitly or explicitly either by solemn definition or by the Church's ordinary Magisterium."
--[i]Catholic Dictionary[/i] (see also CCC 88-90)

Mary as co-redemptrix is very much a part of the ordinary Magisterium (this can be proven, if need be). so, [i][b]it is dogma[/b][/i] and all catholics are bound to believe it. knowing this, it makes one wonder why this push for a solemn definition (ex cathedra statement) is necessary. it could still be beneficial in the sense that solemn definitions remove all doubt and there is still confusion about this doctrine. this would also make the faith more explicit for those who are unaware of the infallible nature of the ordinary magisterium or who don't understand what constitutes the teaching from this source.

Edited February 17, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Fides_et_Ratio]

well, then, phat, you'd better call up Dr. Miravalle at Franciscan and inform him. As well as the Vox Populi movement...






it hasn't been "upped" to the status of dogma, yet. It is still only doctrine.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

"There is only one final action that remains in bringing the Marian roles of Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate into the fullest acknowledgement and ecclesial life of the People of God: that our Holy Father, in his office as Vicar of Christ proclaim the Marian roles of Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, and Advocate for the People of God as Christian dogma revealed by God, in rightful veneration of the Mother of Jesus, and for the good of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of Christ." Luigi Cardinal Ciappi, O.P. Papal Theologian Emeritus for Popes Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 16 2005, 06:58 PM'] well, then, phat, you'd better call up Dr. Miravalle at Franciscan and inform him. As well as the Vox Populi movement...

it hasn't been "upped" to the status of dogma, yet. It is still only doctrine. [/quote]
Yes, it is an infallible truth of Catholic doctrine, and as such it must be definitively held by all the faithful, but it has not yet been proclaimed a dogma.

[Cam42]

It is in fact dogma. Take a look.

164. Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)

166. Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her co-operation in the Incarnation. (Mediatio in universali.)

167. Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven. (Mediatio in speciali.)

168. Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia. (Sent certa.)

[i]Extracted from "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" by Dr Ludwig Ott; Tan Books and Publishers, Inc. 1974.[/i]

[url="http://jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm"]http://jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm[/url]


So, as we can see, it is in fact dogma. It must be adhered to as a tenet of the faith.

Cam42

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I am NOT saying that is does not have to be adhered to... ALL doctrines must be held to be certain. But the fact of the matter is, there are only 4 Marian dogmas, but 5 doctrines. This last doctrine, that of Mary's roles as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate are not yet dogma. This does not make them less true, doctrines are still certain, but have not been solemnly defined--and Mary as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate has not been solemnly defined. Point in case. It is [b]doctrine[/b]. A theologically CERTAIN teaching of the Church which still must be adhered to.

Dogmas are defined in Ecumenical Councils or ex-cathedra statements. Neither have been shown to teach Mary's roles as dogma, thus, they are doctrine.


Though, there is a large push for this as dogma--that's what the Vox Populi movement is-- [url="http://www.voxpopuli.org/"]http://www.voxpopuli.org/[/url] check them out, they're pretty cool (and if you still think it's dogma, tell them their site is pointless...).

Edited February 17, 2005 by Fides_et_Ratio

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Just to make the beginning of my last post a little clearer...

All dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogmas...

Thus, the 5 doctrines of Mary:
1) Theotokos
2) Immaculate Conception
3) Perpetual Virginity
4) Assumption
5) Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate

The 4 Dogmas: (the first 4 doctrines, the last doctrine has yet to be solemnly defined)
1) Theotokos-- Council of Ephesus 431 AD
2) Immaculate Conception-- Dec. 8th, 1854 by Pope Pius IX "...We declare, pronouce, and define..."
3) Perpetual Virginity-- 1st Lateran Council--Mary was Virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ
4) Assumption-- Nov. 1, 1950-- Pius XII "Munificentissimus Deus" ..."We pronounce, declare, and define..."

5) There is NO Council nor infallible statement to support this doctrine (theologically certain TRUTH of the faith) as dogma... YET.





If you still insist that the 5th doctrine is really a dogma... perhaps you could provide the ecumenical council, or excathedra statement declaring it so?

Edited February 17, 2005 by Fides_et_Ratio

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 16 2005, 07:46 PM'] I am NOT saying that is does not have to be adhered to... ALL doctrines must be held to be certain. But the fact of the matter is, there are only 4 Marian dogmas, but 5 doctrines. This last doctrine, that of Mary's roles as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate are not yet dogma. This does not make them less true, doctrines are still certain, but have not been solemnly defined--and Mary as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate has not been solemnly defined. Point in case. It is [b]doctrine[/b]. A theologically CERTAIN teaching of the Church which still must be adhered to.[/quote]
That's correct. The doctrine of Marian coredemption has not been solemnly defined as a dogma of divine and catholic faith by either the Extraordinary or the Ordinary Magisterium; but, that being said, it is a doctrine infallibly taught by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium as a [i]sententia definitive tenenda[/i] (i.e., a proposition to be held definitively), and so all Catholics must give definitive (irrevocable) assent to it.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 16 2005, 07:46 PM'] Dogmas are defined in Ecumenical Councils or ex-cathedra statements. Neither have been shown to teach Mary's roles as dogma, thus, they are doctrine.
[/quote]
As a point of clarification, dogmas can be taught through a solemn defining act of the Extraordinary Magisterium, but they can also be taught through the non-defining acts of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

For more information on this I recommend reading the CDF's [u]Official Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei[/u] [read nos. 5, 8 and 9, in particular].

God bless,
Todd

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 16 2005, 10:26 PM'] As a point of clarification, dogmas can be taught through a solemn defining act of the Extraordinary Magisterium, [i][b]but they can also be taught through the non-defining acts of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.[/b][/i] [/quote]
knowing this, why then can we not say that Mary as co-redemptrix is a dogma taught through a non-defining act of the ordinary magisterium? the whole case presented so far is based on the idea that dogmas require solemn defining acts by the magisterium........but they don't. so, if it can be proven that Mary as co-redemptrix is attested to by the ordinary magisterium--the ordinary teaching of the bishops in communion with the pope--then how can it not be said that this is a dogma?

that is my question

[Fides_et_Ratio]

...take it up with Dr. Miravalle, the Vox Populi movement, and the Pope.




Also, for my own edification, what dogmas have been declared through "non-defining acts of the Magisterium"?
(the reason I ask is I've not been taught that, and that's not what the Catechism seems to say (CCC 891)... and check the definition for dogma in the glossary)

Edited February 17, 2005 by Fides_et_Ratio

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 17 2005, 05:03 AM'] ...take it up with Dr. Miravalle, the Vox Populi movement, and the Pope.

Also, for my own edification, what dogmas have been declared through "non-defining acts of the Magisterium"?
(the reason I ask is I've not been taught that, and that's not what the Catechism seems to say (CCC 891)... and check the definition for dogma in the glossary) [/quote]
The fact that murder is immoral is a dogma of divine and catholic faith, because it has been revealed in sacred scripture and the Church's tradition and has been taught as a dogma by the non-defining acts of Ordinary and Universal Magisterium throughout the Church's history. It is also a dogma that all men will receive back the same body that they had in this temporal life at the end of time in the general resurrection -- the only difference being that their body will be glorified by God's grace -- is a dogma of divine and catholic faith, but this dogma has never been solemnly defined by the Church; rather, it is a dogma taught through the non-defining acts of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Moreover, it is a dogma that in Christ's resurrection everything that went into the make up of His human body was restored to Him, and this has been taught as a dogma even though it has not been defined through a solemn act of the Extraordinary Magisterium. Thus, it is a dogma taught by the non-defining acts of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium as [i]de fide credenda[/i], even though it is not [i]de fide definita[/i]. because the Extraordinary Magisterium has not issued a solemn definition on this matter.

Thus, at the present time, the doctrine of Marian Coredemption, which is a truth of Catholic doctrine and which has been taught infallibly by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, is not yet a dogma of divine and catholic faith, but it must be definitively held by all the Church's faithful, and to reject it is to no longer be in full communion with the Catholic Church. The doctrine of Marian Coredemption and of coredemption in a more general sense (i.e., applicable to all the members of the Church) is [i]de fide tenenda[/i], and so if a man denies this doctrine, he is not longer Catholic. It must be borne in mind that simply because something is not dogmatically defined does not mean that it has not been infallibly taught.

For more information on this, check out the links to my website below:

[url="http://www.geocities.com/apotheoun"]The Church's Magisterium[/url]

[url="http://www.geocities.com/apotheoun/professiofidei"]An Elucidation of the Three Concluding Propositions of the "Professio Fidei" and the Appendix posted below it[/url]

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 17 2005, 05:03 AM'] ...take it up with Dr. Miravalle, the Vox Populi movement, and the Pope.

Also, for my own edification, what dogmas have been declared through "non-defining acts of the Magisterium"?
(the reason I ask is I've not been taught that, and that's not what the Catechism seems to say (CCC 891)... and check the definition for dogma in the glossary) [/quote]
There is a common misconception prevalent in the Church today -- affecting many people including some theologians -- and it concerns the different modes of operation of the Church's Magisterium and what is said about the Magisterium in the [u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u]. These individuals mistakenly hold that the teaching contained in the Catechism is an exhaustive treatment of the doctrine of the Magisterium, but clearly it is not. The Catechism is a compendium of Catholic doctrine, but it is not a synthesis of the faith, nor is it even possible to achieve such a thing. Thus, paragraph 891 in the Catechism concerns only the Extraordinary Magisterium, it does not touch on the non-defining acts of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Both the Extraordinary Magisterium and the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium can teach dogmas and doctrines infallibly. The former through defining acts, and the latter through non-defining acts. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has explained this truth in two different documents, the first was issued in the early 1990s and is called [u]Donum Veritatis[/u] (Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian), while the second and more helpful document, which is called [u]The Official Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei[/u] was issued in tandem with the Pope's Apostolic Letter Motu Proprio entitled [u]Ad Tuendam Fidem[/u]. The CDF's Doctrinal Commentary goes into greater detail on the modes of operation of the Church's infallible Magisterium than does the Catechism. Moreover, there have been other helpful clarifications issued by members of the CDF, including the excellent essay written by Cardinal Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, which is entitled [u]Magisterial Documents and Public Dissent[/u]. In that essay Cardinal Bertone clarifies matters by pointing out that the Pope, even in the exercise of his Ordinary Magisterium, can infallibly bind the faithful to a particular doctrinal proposition, an example of this took place when the Holy Father issued the Apostolic Letter [u]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/u], because in that letter the Pope irrevocably taught that women cannot receive the sacrament of orders, and that this doctrine must be held definitively by all the faithful. As a consequence of the teaching in [u]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/u] it is a doctrine [i]de fide tenenda[/i] that women cannot be ordained, and this teaching has been infallibly proclaimed by an act of the Ordinary Papal Magisterium. The Pope himself affirms his intention to bind the Church irrevocably to specific doctrinal and moral propositions in a document entitled [u]The Magisterium Exercises Authority in Christ's Name[/u], for in that document the Pope said that, one is not free ". . . to hold that the pronouncements and doctrinal decisions of the Magisterium call for irrevocable assent only when it states them in a solemn judgment or definitive act, and that, consequently, in all other cases one need only consider the arguments or reasons employed. In the Encyclicals [u]Veritatis Splendor[/u] and [u]Evangelium Vitae[/u], as well as in the Apostolic Letter [u]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/u], I wished once again to set forth the constant doctrine of the Church's faith with an act confirming truths which are clearly witnessed to by Scripture, the apostolic Tradition and the unanimous teaching of the Pastors. These declarations, by virtue of the authority handed down to the Successor of Peter to 'confirm the brethren' (Lk 22:32), thus express the common certitude present in the life and teaching of the Church." [Pope John Paul II, [u]The Magisterium Exercises Authority in Christ's Name[/u], no. 6] When a doctrine is taught as definitive by the Church's Magisterium, it is by definition infallibly proclaimed, and so whether it is taught through an Extraordinary defining act of the Magisterium or through an Ordinary non-defining act of the Magisterium is irrelevant to the nature of the truth in question, because the mode of operation engaged by the Church's Magisterium does not affect the assent to be given by the faithful, which in both cases is irrevocable.

I hope this helps, God bless,
Todd