Phikoz Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 His work is not done now....he will now help us forever in heaven! whatever he did in this life, will not compare to what he will do in his next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 [quote name='Phikoz' date='Apr 2 2005, 02:03 PM'] His work is not done now....he will now help us forever in heaven! whatever he did in this life, will not compare to what he will do in his next. [/quote] amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luciana Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 I don't know what to say. I'm sad and happy and nervous and excited. I'll miss him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamCatholic Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 Excuse me, I love the Pope, too, but this is blasphemous. The Pope has just died. He is not in Heaven yet. He would never want people to ask for his intercession apart from the Church's decree that he is a Saint (or at least a Beati), especially not publicly. He would certainly call this Presumption of God's Mercy. We cannot presume God's mercy. "Si iniquitates observaris Domine, Domine quis sustinebit?" (If thou wilt mark iniquities, O Lord, Lord, who shall stand it?) If it is hard for a just man to save his soul, how much harder is it for someone who has such a great responsibility as the Pope?? I think if we read Church history and the Saints, we will see that, the more authority one has, the greater responsibilities one has, and the harder it is to save one's soul. To say that a Pope has entered Heaven immediately after dying (without any decree of the Church) is wrong. We cannot presume God's mercy. I am glad that our Most Holy Lord John Paul was able to die on Divine Mercy Sunday (well, at least, he died after first Vespers of Divine Mercy Sunday in Rome), so we can have hope in the mercy of God and, as EWTN said yesterday, PRAY FOR THE REPOSE OF HIS SOUL (not his intercession!!). We are not doing our Holy Father any good deed by asking for his intercession. We should be praying for the repose of his soul, like EWTN said to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 What is presumptuous is your statement that "The Pope is not in heaven yet." How can you possibly know the state of repose of his soul? And since the beginning of the Church, saints have been proclaimed by popular acclaimation. How do you think canonization works? If you couldn't pray to a person for intersession until he/she was officially proclaimed a saint, how would he/she ever intercede for the required miracles? No, it is right and fitting to ask for intercession. But I do agree with you that during the next nine days, we are in mourning and in funeral procedings. Here, it is proper to pray for the repose of his soul. But I don' t think that it is blasphemous to pray for his intercession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 I may have missed this but who claimed the pope was God? "Blasphemy: The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamCatholic Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 By that, I meant, AS FAR AS WE KNOW, the Pope is not in Heaven (yet). That is what I meant. We cannot canonize him, though. We should be praying for him that he will be saved from the pains of Purgatory. If every Catholic in the world prayed a Rosary for this, I think he would only be there very shortly. If, instead, we simply canonize him (without the Church's authority, miracles, etc) and start asking for his prayers, then we are not helping him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 (edited) And I just read your whole three posts. You have a [i]heck[/i] of a lot of gall coming here as high and mighty as you have. Edited April 2, 2005 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 No one has canonized him. How do you think a person comes to be canonized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 [quote name='IamCatholic' date='Apr 2 2005, 04:12 PM'] Excuse me, I love the Pope, too, but this is blasphemous. The Pope has just died. He is not in Heaven yet. He would never want people to ask for his intercession apart from the Church's decree that he is a Saint (or at least a Beati), especially not publicly. He would certainly call this Presumption of God's Mercy. We cannot presume God's mercy. "Si iniquitates observaris Domine, Domine quis sustinebit?" (If thou wilt mark iniquities, O Lord, Lord, who shall stand it?) If it is hard for a just man to save his soul, how much harder is it for someone who has such a great responsibility as the Pope?? I think if we read Church history and the Saints, we will see that, the more authority one has, the greater responsibilities one has, and the harder it is to save one's soul. To say that a Pope has entered Heaven immediately after dying (without any decree of the Church) is wrong. We cannot presume God's mercy. I am glad that our Most Holy Lord John Paul was able to die on Divine Mercy Sunday (well, at least, he died after first Vespers of Divine Mercy Sunday in Rome), so we can have hope in the mercy of God and, as EWTN said yesterday, PRAY FOR THE REPOSE OF HIS SOUL (not his intercession!!). We are not doing our Holy Father any good deed by asking for his intercession. We should be praying for the repose of his soul, like EWTN said to! [/quote] I agree. We should pray for the repose of the Holy Father's soul. But we should also ask the souls in purgatory for their intercession. This is the Tradition of the Church. I believe in the Communion of the Saints, and death can't separate us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamCatholic Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 (edited) Okay, like I said, I love the Pope, and I will pray for him because I love him, and I truly believe that God is showing His mercy by taking the Pope from his earthly life on Divine Mercy Sunday, but that does not mean that we should say he is already in Heaven. When I said, we can't canonize him, I mean we can't say he is definitely in Heaven (like, we can't say that he is already a Saint) because if we pray to him, then we are saying he is in Heaven. Also, I think there is a special plenary indulgence for Divine Mercy Sunday, so I hope with all my heart that the Pope gained that indulgence, but I don't think we can say for sure. Also, brother, I think it would be better not to use that kind of language, especially when we are talking about the Holy Father at the same time! Edited April 2, 2005 by IamCatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 And on this you are wrong. In order for a saint to be canonized, their intercession must be sought. Praying for the intercession of the pope does not declare him to be canonized. If we never asked for the intercession of someone who was not a saint, there literally would be no saints as there would be no way to prove miracles through the persons intercession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 Yeah...I see where you're coming from IAmCatholic. Just consider, asking for intercession does not equal the sin of presumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamCatholic Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 Oh, that makes sense, but I thought it was supposed to be in private always, at least until one miracle and until the Church says that the person is "blessed" (I think this is after one miracle), but until then I thought it was private? I see, that couldn't be presumptous, because the first person to have a miracle would have to ask for intercession. I guess I just misunderstood that process, but Is till think it is private devotions at first, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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