Kraft is a major sponsor of 2006 Gay Olympic Games

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='May 12 2005, 02:24 AM'] Flaunting in this context is intentionally confronting the (percieved) code of morality of the majority. I think that both sides would agree with that definition. In that definition, a woman with an engagement ring is not flaunting because it is not intentional and it is not challenging the morality of the majority. Again, it *would* be flaunting if a straight man were to enter a gay pride parade with a sign that said "Breeding is the Best!" because that would be intentionally confronting the (percieved) code of morality of the majority. Flaunting is upsetting others, a type of protest. You can only flaunt something that you have and no one else does. So, if your child is an honors student, putting a bumpersticker that says "My child is an honors student" is flaunting that fact. Simply saying "My child is a student" isn't flaunting, but would be an ironic statement, perhaps.

Of course, this flaunting debate is secondary. The fact that someone is flaunting something is less important than if what they are flaunting is wrong. We don' t mind so much if someone has that honors student bumpersticker, but we would mind if it said, "My son cheated his way to Harvard!" because we believe that cheating is wrong. So, one could only say that heterosexual flaunting is equivalent to homosexual flaunting if one believed that all heterosexual sex is immoral, which no one does. On the other hand, it is consistent for a Catholic to condemn homosexual "flaunting" but not heterosexual "flaunting". One could say that any flaunting of any sexuality is fine, but that supposes that the two behaviors are the same and the situations are the same. It is begging the question. [/quote]
So if I said, "Stop flaunting your morality," what would you say? My guess is that you would deny flaunting anything and state that you are merely expressing the Truth of the Church. However, with that statement, I've already put you on the defensive. I've already erected a wall between the two of us. I've already hindered our interactions.

Saving face, dealing with pride, those are important issues. People are sinners. They are prideful creatures wrapped up in their own little worlds. To assault that pride, isn't necessarily wrong, in fact it is sometimes necessary. However, I find that it is also often counter-productive - just like this thread.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='May 12 2005, 02:35 AM'] Again, we are talking about the Gay Olympics,

not some poor soul struggling to remain chaste. [/quote]
This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Yes, these people are going to a gay olympics to celebrate the fact that they practice a deviant sexuality which is abhorrent in the eyes of God. That's true. I'm not going to deny that. However, these people could be poor souls struggling to remain chaste if we reached out to them. They aren't a lost cause. The forgiveness of the Lord is infinite. My point is that instead of making threads like these where we all talk about how morally repugnant Gay Olympics are, maybe we should devote our energies to reaching out to the people who participate in them. Maybe we should befriend them, talk to them, and learn about them. Then, through the grace of God, we can reach them and convert them to the Truth. That's why this is a valid discussion and not a red herring in the thread. Because, ultimately, the goal is to share the faith with others, not ridicule them. And I haven't seen a whole lot of sharing going on. What I've seen is revulsion and self-righteousness.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote]This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Yes, these people are going to a gay olympics to celebrate the fact that they practice a deviant sexuality which is abhorrent in the eyes of God. That's true. I'm not going to deny that. However, these people could be poor souls struggling to remain chaste if we reached out to them. They aren't a lost cause. The forgiveness of the Lord is infinite. My point is that instead of making threads like these where we all talk about how morally repugnant Gay Olympics are, maybe we should devote our energies to reaching out to the people who participate in them. Maybe we should befriend them, talk to them, and learn about them. Then, through the grace of God, we can reach them and convert them to the Truth. That's why this is a valid discussion and not a red herring in the thread. Because, ultimately, the goal is to share the faith with others, not ridicule them. And I haven't seen a whole lot of sharing going on. What I've seen is revulsion and self-righteousness. [/quote]

what she and this thread is about is the actual event taking place, not the ppl

ways to stop such an event from happening, ie speaking up and taking action.

many of us dont live in chicago, etc. for the [i]event[/i] and are finding means to do something to maybe change the course of the outcome that is planned.

yes, they are souls, needed to be treated with dignity and love, that is a given and always done through our personal day lives..

we do not ridicule anyone, we do share, and boy do we pray!

again, to clarify the thread is about the event that is going to take place and the businesses that support.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='littleflower' date='JMJ+May 12 2005, 02:44 AM']
what she and this thread is about is the actual event taking place, not the ppl

many of us dont live in chicago [/quote]
They're inextricably linked.

I don't live in Chicago either. However, you don't seem to realize the broader ramifications of this thread. Threads like this will drive people who are seeking the truth further from it. They will make people strugglng with homosexuality defensive, and they will do nothing but hurt the Church.

If you don't think there are homosexuals lurking and reading this thread, you're mistaken. The negative behavior on this thread will affect a great many people.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='littleflower' date='JMJ+May 12 2005, 02:44 AM'] yes, they are souls, needed to be treated with dignity and love, that is a given and always done. [/quote]
It's not a given, and it's almost never done. I haven't seen very many people arguing for the dignity of homosexual persons on this thread.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote]If you don't think there are homosexuals lurking and reading this thread, you're mistaken.  The negative behavior on this thread will affect a great many people.[/quote]

its your first day here, stick around you will find out its quite the opposite.

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 02:49 AM'] It's not a given, and it's almost never done.  I haven't seen very many people arguing for the dignity of homosexual persons on this thread. [/quote]

thats because this is about how to counteract the acts one powerhouse company is making thats why

what i mean that its being done and it a given is that we do that in our workplaces, our jobs, school and within our own families...aka being lived out

please dont judge others and say we dont treat others with dignity because you really dont know how we speak to ppl or know of any of our experiences in doing so.....we do not mistreat them, be uncharitable or anything--which is what you happen to imply ppl do by this one thread and its posts alone when its not even about that

this thread is talking about ways to prevent events like the gay olympics to occur

human dignity is always demanded, just because we happen to hold back on some mac and coagulated milk because of a immoral decision by a company doesn't mean we dont and that its "nowhere to be found" by this thread alone. Because this one happens to be about a secular company that has the power to support something that will have wide ill-effects--in fact, if you read other threads on this topic you will find human dignity discussed and mentioned

when i email, call and write to kraft i am not going to insult or degrade them, no quite the opposite, etc.

when i speak up against this event, i will not curse or condemn anyone, but politely correct.

and yes, when i meet others, that God has put in our pathways, who may have a particularlly hard cross to bear and carry, i am certainly not going to throw them out in the rain...but share and lead.

i apologize for any misunderstandings, there is so much that cannot be communited through simple black text and im afraid is where alot of confusion can come from...also from how the text is taken when read as well...but thats online communicaiton and its implications....which is why im trying to clarify here

i understand what your saying about charity, and i dont think there is anything you said that I can disagree with, because you are exactly right, no one is saying your wrong, St. Therese always said without charity and love, everything is in vain....

as for reaching out, be assured, you will find for most of us, the book "A story of a soul" as a our guide and mother theresa of calcutta as our hero

[jmjtina]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 01:49 AM'] It's not a given, and it's almost never done. I haven't seen very many people arguing for the dignity of homosexual persons on this thread. [/quote]
Because no one has denied them thier dignity on this thread.

Who has ridiculed? Who has degraded them? Point it out, please.

Would you dialouge with a dressed KKK clansmen at thier KKK meeting the same way you would a person who has views of biogotry?

Would you dialouge with a first grader and a teenager the same way about treating people with respect?

This is about the morality of our society and boycotting Kraft who supports something that is immoral.

Your trying your case by stating absurd things about race, alcholism and about ridiculing, degrading and denying them thier dignity is ridiculous. We aren't doing a case by case faith/Truth sharing support here. We are talking about the "gay" olympics or anyone else who puts on public displays such as these. It's war on family, society and morality in this country when the display is this big and public.

I'm just sorry you confuse the two.

[argent_paladin]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 02:36 AM'] So if I said, "Stop flaunting your morality," what would you say? My guess is that you would deny flaunting anything and state that you are merely expressing the Truth of the Church. However, with that statement, I've already put you on the defensive. I've already erected a wall between the two of us. I've already hindered our interactions.

[/quote]
It depends on what I was doing. As I said before, that is critical. If I were wearing a t-shirt that said, "Holier than thou", then you would be correct in your criticism. If I mentioned a former girlfriend and you said that, I would think that you were crazy. If someone wore a t-shirt that said "I am gay. Deal with it!", then I would say that is flaunting. If he mentioned a former boyfriend, in the context of the conversatiion, I wouldn't say it was flaunting. But I usually don't go around saying that I have "Straight Pride" or participate in Straight marches, etc. Nor do I participate in "Look at my holiness" parades (unless you count Catholic processions).
I am merely defending the accuracy of the "flaunting" statement, not its appropriateness. I agree with you that it is not a good method to engage in thoughtful dialogue. But accuracy and appropriateness are two different things. Many times we should not state the truth (not the same as lying) as bluntly as possible for the sake of preserving charity and trust.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 02:30 AM'] You say wrong but you fail to back it up with any credible evidence.  If you are going to use a vague, politically charged term like "flaunting" then you need evidence to back it up.  You need to tell us what exactly flaunting is, and what about it is offensive and morally wrong - only then can we have a reasonable discussion on the subject.

I have provided one definition of "flaunting" and I have defined it as any behavior by a homosexual which gives a heterosexual an indication that the person isn't also heterosexual.  That's the definition I used.  I feel that, using this definition, we can easily see how hypocritical the notion of "flaunting" becomes because it involves behaviors which are perfectly acceptable for heterosexuals.

Now, I contend that it is perfectly acceptable to refer to homosexual intercourse as immoral.  That is what the Church teaches.  However, I also contend that this "flaunting" terminology doesn't apply to heterosexual couples, engaging in acts, outside of wedlock.  This is also immoral according to the Church but nobody ever accuses these people of "flaunting their sexuality."

So, I think that the term "flaunting" shouldn't be used at all because it is a useless term.  If you think that the behavior is wrong, that's fine.  However the dictionary definition of flaunting is:

1 : to display ostentatiously or impudently
2 : to treat contemptuously

Now, if a gay man says that he has a boyfriend, is that "flaunting" according to you?  That's a sense I've often seen the word used.  However, going back to the dictionary definitions, we can see how completely misguided that is.  It implies an intention on the part of the gay man to be contemptuous or impudent of another person's belief.  It implies a motive that might not be there at all.  That word is emotionally charged and wrong.  If you feel that it is flaunting it is because of your own emotional projections of dislike - homophobia.  Taking offense where it isn't intended is clearly an emotional projection. [/quote]
I do not believe there is a need to back up the obvious.

There are many homosexuals that are 'in your face' flaunting. They want to make sure you know that they're "here and queeer". If you haven't experianced this majority, then you are lucky.

The lifestyle is morally wrong... it is morally wrong to place this disorder in the sight of children.


[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html[/url]

Edited May 12, 2005 by ironmonk

[thessalonian]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 02:48 AM'] They're inextricably linked.

I don't live in Chicago either. However, you don't seem to realize the broader ramifications of this thread. Threads like this will drive people who are seeking the truth further from it. They will make people strugglng with homosexuality defensive, and they will do nothing but hurt the Church.

If you don't think there are homosexuals lurking and reading this thread, you're mistaken. The negative behavior on this thread will affect a great many people. [/quote]
Would you say the same about the Bible? Does that do damage to the Church as well such that we should avoid Pauls words

1 Corinthians 6

9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor [b]homosexuals[/b],
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

I only bolded that because it is pertinent to the thread. No, we are to preach the word in season and out of seaon. Today it is out of season.

Those who are living celibately that have homosexual tendencies have no reason to shy away from this thread. Those who are engaging in this behavior need to look at what they are doing and come to the sacrament of confession as must I for the things that I do. To call them to acknowledge their sin and come to Christ's mercy should not be offensive to them. To leave them in their sins and outside of his mercy, thinking that such activity is okay is not love. Sorry.

Blessings

[argent_paladin]

Shouldn't this be moved to the debate table?

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='May 12 2005, 08:47 AM'] Would you say the same about the Bible? Does that do damage to the Church as well such that we should avoid Pauls words

1 Corinthians 6

9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor [b]homosexuals[/b],
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

I only bolded that because it is pertinent to the thread. No, we are to preach the word in season and out of seaon. Today it is out of season.

Those who are living celibately that have homosexual tendencies have no reason to shy away from this thread. Those who are engaging in this behavior need to look at what they are doing and come to the sacrament of confession as must I for the things that I do. To call them to acknowledge their sin and come to Christ's mercy should not be offensive to them. To leave them in their sins and outside of his mercy, thinking that such activity is okay is not love. Sorry.

Blessings [/quote]
Yeah okay, you quote Paul at them, and see how well that works at establishing a real dialogue. There's a time to quote Corinthians. In my opinion, that comes AFTER having established a rapport with an individual.

[Dreamweaver]

Well, Philip Morris (owner of Kraft) also [url="http://www.stantoninus.net/listab.htm"]supports abortion, through NOW.[/url] It really comes to no suprise that if one supports abortion, they'll support something like the Gay Olympics.

I still don't see any point to having a "Gay Olympics".

[thessalonian]

[quote]In my opinion, that comes AFTER having established a rapport with an individual. [/quote]

Those of you who wish to argue on this thread set up these straw men that because we say one thing we are stating that is the only method or way we think should be used.
With regard to people in my life who are gay I agree that we need to establish relationships and look for opportunities to steer them in the right direction. With regard to speaking to society, which the Church and we are required to do, and which this thread is about, I disagree. We, as Paul did, can and should make statements regarding the immorality of homosexuality.

Blessings

[cmotherofpirl]

You are all right in one way or another.
However this thread is about responding to Kraft foods, not various methods of evangelization of sinners.
If you want a thread on that topic , open one in the debate table.