Kraft is a major sponsor of 2006 Gay Olympic Games

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='littleflower' date='JMJ+May 12 2005, 01:56 AM'] tyou obviously dont know her

jmjtina calls a spade a spade, doesn't matter who you are, if its not right, she'll make it known, with charity too.

yes, shes [i]that[/i] good. [/quote]
I'm not arguing over her fairness. All I'm saying is we use the word flaunt specifically for homosexuals and I think it is wrong morally as well as etymologically. Furthermore, I think it is counterproductive to establishing a dialogue with homosexuals and the Church. Sometimes calling a spade a spade isn't the best approach. I'm in favor of doing things with charity, but if using "flaunting" to refer to homosexual behaviors is an example of it then I'd rather do without.

[Christ's Knight]

First off... Kudos to Kateri05, LittleFlower, Theso. and all the others who saved me from having to type a novel....
But let me ask Y'all a question or 2.
What do you think Jesus would say if he were traveling through Chicago on those dates? Yippey! I am just in time to get a good seat and watch my homosexual children perform sporting events. Or, Turn to ME and away from your wicked ways!

By the By C. Jesus did spend his time with sinners (and we are all sinners [and I feel silly to have to point that out, but I know if anyone replies to this they will distort this statement if there is no disclaimer entact]) but He did NOT condone the sin. I doubt very strongly that Christ would have said "The prostitute olympics are OK because commiting prostitution while they compete in the 50 yard dash".

[jmjtina]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 12:52 AM'] Yes, just as handicapped people flaunt their disabilities during the real special olympics.

You forget that not everyone follows the Church, but as I've already pointed out, a couple out of wedlock, with two kids, acting like a loving family, is just as much flaunting as a gay couple but nobody calls them on it. Clearly, flaunting is reserved for homosexuals.

A gay couple holding hands at disneyland would be a disgusting example of homosexuals flaunting their sexuality. With heterosexuals, it's either a gross PDA, or, more likely, cute and normal.

I'm not arguing that a homosexual relationship is on par with a heterosexual relationship, I'm merely arguing that we should as much as possible eliminate charged stock phrases like these and instead engage in a real and meaningful conversation with homosexual people. If you can't get past them "flaunting" their sexuality, then you'll make no progress. I'm in the business of saving souls where apologetics is concerned, not upholding a right wing agenda. In my experience, I've found dropping the self-righteousness and anger, and not accusing people goes a long way in reconciling them with your beliefs. [/quote]
handicapped people flaunting? So I flaunt my race when I go sign up for the Latina scholarship?

Who are we talking about? People with same-sex attractions who FLAUNT thier disorders as if we should act if they are okay with how they are living. People who want an OLYMPIC game dedicated to them? That's not flaunting?

A couple out of wedlock isn't as OBVIOUS (my mom didn't wear an actual wedding ring for a while because she lost it) as two people of the same sex now, is it? YOu accuse hetersexual people of being out of wedlock, yet you don't judge those with ssa.

Clearly, flaunting is something that needs to be done, shouted and pushed upon the MAJORITY.

I prefer charity with truth, not sugarcoating it or trying to be politically correct either.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Christ's Knight' date='May 12 2005, 02:04 AM'] First off... Kudos to Kateri05, LittleFlower, Theso. and all the others who saved me from having to type a novel....
But let me ask Y'all a question or 2.
What do you think Jesus would say if he were traveling through Chicago on those dates? Yippey! I am just in time to get a good seat and watch my homosexual children perform sporting events. Or, Turn to ME and away from your wicked ways!

By the By C. Jesus did spend his time with sinners (and we are all sinners [and I feel silly to have to point that out, but I know if anyone replies to this they will distort this statement if there is no disclaimer entact]) but He did NOT condone the sin. I doubt very strongly that Christ would have said "The prostitute olympics are OK because commiting prostitution while they compete in the 50 yard dash". [/quote]
Except none of us is the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. So, short of turning water into wine, what do you think is the best way to save the souls of people who have lapsed into error? I think in order to hear me, they have to be willing to listen. That means treating them with a deal of sympathy and compassion for the sake of building rapport.

Wretching, vomiting gestures, boycotts, counter-protests, and labels don't work. Honest, open, and friendly communication does. I understand that this might not sound firm enough, but being nice doesn't require bending from Church doctrine.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='May 12 2005, 02:07 AM'] handicapped people flaunting? So I flaunt my race when I go sign up for the Latina scholarship?

Who are we talking about? People with same-sex attractions who FLAUNT thier disorders as if we should act if they are okay with how they are living. People who want an OLYMPIC game dedicated to them? That's not flaunting?

A couple out of wedlock isn't as OBVIOUS (my mom didn't wear an actual wedding ring for a while because she lost it) as two people of the same sex now, is it? YOu accuse hetersexual people of being out of wedlock, yet you don't judge those with ssa.

Clearly, flaunting is something that needs to be done, shouted and pushed upon the MAJORITY.

I prefer charity with truth, not sugarcoating it or trying to be politically correct either. [/quote]
Right. Well I hate how you flaunt your race. You see, the majority of people are white. I think you're flaunting your race by having a special scholarship dedicated just to you. That's disgusting. So I'm not good enough or special enough to have a scholarship? You're a minority, big deal, get over yourself.

Clearly, flaunting is something that needs to be done, shouted and pushed upon the MAJORITY.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='May 12 2005, 02:07 AM'] handicapped people flaunting? So I flaunt my race when I go sign up for the Latina scholarship?

Who are we talking about? People with same-sex attractions who FLAUNT thier disorders as if we should act if they are okay with how they are living. People who want an OLYMPIC game dedicated to them? That's not flaunting?

A couple out of wedlock isn't as OBVIOUS (my mom didn't wear an actual wedding ring for a while because she lost it) as two people of the same sex now, is it? YOu accuse hetersexual people of being out of wedlock, yet you don't judge those with ssa.

Clearly, flaunting is something that needs to be done, shouted and pushed upon the MAJORITY.

I prefer charity with truth, not sugarcoating it or trying to be politically correct either. [/quote]
To analyze this in a less combative way...

I'm actually offended that you think I sugar coat things or don't use the truth. You clearly aren't using charity, you're using the giant sledgehammer of Catholic morality. What I do is accept people for who they are and where they're coming from. If that means having homosexual relations, then I accept that is the person's code of ethics, and mindset for the moment. Only by accepting it, and accepting the person, can I then work to change it.

You can't fix someone by simply telling them the answer. People don't work that way. You have to show them the truth step by step until they see it for themselves. Taking a more subtle approach isn't sugar-coating. Not condemning them right off the bat isn't wrong.

I never tell homosexuals that what they're doing is acceptable. However, I also never start off a conversation with a gay person by saying "What you're doing is wrong." That's charity. That's compassion. And it works. How many homosexuals have you converted from their wicked ways?

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 02:08 AM'] Wretching, vomiting gestures, boycotts, counter-protests, and labels don't work.  Honest, open, and friendly communication does.  I understand that this might not sound firm enough, but being nice doesn't require bending from Church doctrine. [/quote]
while i have no idea where the wretching and vomiting and all that came from, boycotting is quite peaceful and effective.

since when did wanting to speak up (letting the Kraft company know) and show disapproval and inacceptance become something mean and cruel?

no one has ever said to mistreat them/be uncharitable or even hinted at being so

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='littleflower' date='JMJ+May 12 2005, 02:16 AM'] while i have no idea where the wretching and vomiting and all that came from, but boycotting is quite peaceful and effective.

since when did wanting to speak up (letting the Kraft company know) and show disapproval and inacceptance become something mean and cruel?

no one has ever said to mistreat them/be uncharitable or even hinted at being so, [/quote]
Actually the vomiting came from the green face beside this thread.

As far as charity, well I guess you're all forgetting the golden rule. Treat others as you want to be treated. I honestly don't think you all realize that you've committed sins equally egregious in the eyes of God as homosexuality. You wouldn't want to be spoken to in the confrontational way I've seen used on this thread. Treating people like human beings is NOT being politically correct - it is being Christian.

Edited May 12, 2005 by KizlarAgha

[jmjtina]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 01:10 AM'] Right. Well I hate how you flaunt your race. You see, the majority of people are white. I think you're flaunting your race by having a special scholarship dedicated just to you. That's disgusting. So I'm not good enough or special enough to have a scholarship? You're a minority, big deal, get over yourself.

Clearly, flaunting is something that needs to be done, shouted and pushed upon the MAJORITY. [/quote]
Your confusing your political correctness with your inability to understand what is being discussed.

Let's stay on the same page. Clearly you see the difference between skin color and the immmorality of the topic. It's a natural law, moral law, and God's law that man and woman be together.

Regardless of what you think flaunting is, really has no changing effect of what this whole thread is about.

[argent_paladin]

Flaunting in this context is intentionally confronting the (percieved) code of morality of the majority. I think that both sides would agree with that definition. In that definition, a woman with an engagement ring is not flaunting because it is not intentional and it is not challenging the morality of the majority. Again, it *would* be flaunting if a straight man were to enter a gay pride parade with a sign that said "Breeding is the Best!" because that would be intentionally confronting the (percieved) code of morality of the majority. Flaunting is upsetting others, a type of protest. You can only flaunt something that you have and no one else does. So, if your child is an honors student, putting a bumpersticker that says "My child is an honors student" is flaunting that fact. Simply saying "My child is a student" isn't flaunting, but would be an ironic statement, perhaps.

Of course, this flaunting debate is secondary. The fact that someone is flaunting something is less important than if what they are flaunting is wrong. We don' t mind so much if someone has that honors student bumpersticker, but we would mind if it said, "My son cheated his way to Harvard!" because we believe that cheating is wrong. So, one could only say that heterosexual flaunting is equivalent to homosexual flaunting if one believed that all heterosexual sex is immoral, which no one does. On the other hand, it is consistent for a Catholic to condemn homosexual "flaunting" but not heterosexual "flaunting". One could say that any flaunting of any sexuality is fine, but that supposes that the two behaviors are the same and the situations are the same. It is begging the question.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 01:15 AM'] To analyze this in a less combative way...

I'm actually offended that you think I sugar coat things or don't use the truth. You clearly aren't using charity, you're using the giant sledgehammer of Catholic morality. What I do is accept people for who they are and where they're coming from. If that means having homosexual relations, then I accept that is the person's code of ethics, and mindset for the moment. Only by accepting it, and accepting the person, can I then work to change it.

You can't fix someone by simply telling them the answer. People don't work that way. You have to show them the truth step by step until they see it for themselves. Taking a more subtle approach isn't sugar-coating. Not condemning them right off the bat isn't wrong.

I never tell homosexuals that what they're doing is acceptable. However, I also never start off a conversation with a gay person by saying "What you're doing is wrong." That's charity. That's compassion. And it works. How many homosexuals have you converted from their wicked ways? [/quote]
If you want to talk about different ways and methods of being charitable, and sharing truth, I'm all for it.

BUT what your talking about is totally different and sidetracking from what this thread is discussing.

Oh and I don't covert anybody.

God does.

[Christ's Knight]

Dear KizlarAgha,

So what you are proposing is a peaceful "negotiation" to bring the homosexual organization to The Lord?

Only God can change our hearts! You could negotiate with them 'till the end of time and all it would get you is the further degredation of family values. My, Satan is really hard at work.

allow me to make a suggestion; Walk away from this discussion or thead or the internet all together, and PRAY. Close off you own personal thoughts, feelings or what have you and PRAY. Ask God our Father to enlighten you on this subject.

Remember... YOUR WILL BE DONE?

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='May 12 2005, 02:23 AM'] Your confusing your political correctness with your inability to understand what is being discussed.

Let's stay on the same page. Clearly you see the difference between skin color and the immmorality of the topic. It's a natural law, moral law, and God's law that man and woman be together.

Regardless of what you think flaunting is, really has no changing effect of what this whole thread is about. [/quote]
I'm not being politically correct. Let me lay it out for you.

Is an alcoholic drinking a six pack of beer flaunting is alcoholism or succumbing to an illness?

Is a woman who decides to get an abortion flaunting her sinful nature, or making a poor decision based on inaccurate information?

Is a homosexual man, kissing his boyfriend in public flaunting his homosexuality, or expressing the symptoms of his own struggles?

Looking at things the way you do, using loaded terms, and all the other nonsense on this thread isn't charitable. I have a priest whom I work with who is a wonderful man. He works with the homeless community in my city which has a huge drug and alcohol problem.

Whem my priest speaks to these men and women, he doesn't accost them and tell them that what they're doing is wrong. Instead, he listens, and tries to understand why they feel the need to abuse drugs and alcohol. Only when he understands the why, can he work to change the behavior. He has been phenomenally successful. We now have 2 different homeless men working at the Church, completely sober. He accomplished this because he didn't admonish them for being sinners right off the bat. He led them slowly, step by step, until they realized their errors for themselves, and then acted to correct them.

Homosexuality is no different. You will accomplish nothing with your holer-than thou attitude and I'm sure your success rate bears this out. Only by stopping, setting aside you lack of tolerance, and listening to a person, can you understand why they behave in a way contrary to the will of God. Then, you can lead them to an understanding by which they realize for themselves that they're making a mistake. At that point, with your help, they will amend their ways and live pious lives. I've seen it time and time again.

This isn't political correctness, it is true charity. Unfortunately, it involves losing those knee-jerk reactions, slowing down, and taking things one step at a time. Worst of all, it means coming to understand homosexuality, that lifestyle, and your fellow man.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='May 12 2005, 02:26 AM'] If you want to talk about different ways and methods of being charitable, and sharing truth, I'm all for it.

BUT what your talking about is totally different and sidetracking from what this thread is discussing.

Oh and I don't covert anybody.

God does. [/quote]
Well, all I can say is, with charitable discussions like these, we're gonna need Him.

[jmjtina]

Again, we are talking about the Gay Olympics,

not some poor soul struggling to remain chaste.