N/A Gone Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 stupid finals..I cant put much time in this tonight, But "heresy" isnt an issue here. I spent most of the summer in dialogue with Boyd, my priest and thru my priest( whom is very ecucated) the bishop We came to the conclusion that Open theism is an option within catholicism just as the thomist method, or the molinist method. So "heresy" isnt even a word that can be used in this dialogue LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 well, no offense (i don't really know) but many priests and bishops are heretics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 hmm...so you are putting your own authority over a bishop/priests if it doesnt agree with what you feel? Hmm, I guess that makes you protestant..Personally, with what I know of Open theism(*and I know open theism better than any other concept) as well as what I have seen in the writings of my priest Im gonna be putting my trust in that rather than some guy who "does not rep the church" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 [quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 4 2005, 07:54 PM']stupid finals..I cant put much time in this tonight, But "heresy" isnt an issue here. I spent most of the summer in dialogue with Boyd, my priest and thru my priest( whom is very ecucated) the bishop We came to the conclusion that Open theism is an option within catholicism just as the thomist method, or the molinist method. So "heresy" isnt even a word that can be used in this dialogue LD [right][snapback]810886[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I tend to disagree, and you can't appeal to some anonymous clergymen to legitimize the claim that open theism is orthodox. I would prefer that you explain how the system of open theism does not contradict dogmas of the Faith. And even if this could be done, there might be necessary logical conclusions which contradict tenets of the Faith. It might be possible that open theism could be understood in such a way that it is compatible with Catholicism, but so far I'm not seeing it. Forgive me if I'm totally off, but I'm convinced its not going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 [quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 4 2005, 07:59 PM']hmm...so you are putting your own authority over a bishop/priests if it doesnt agree with what you feel? Hmm, I guess that makes you protestant..Personally, with what I know of Open theism(*and I know open theism better than any other concept) as well as what I have seen in the writings of my priest Im gonna be putting my trust in that rather than some guy who "does not rep the church" [right][snapback]810892[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If I asked around, I could probably get an okay from a priest or Bishop to have an abortion, ordain a woman or fornicate. The point is, you have not produced a document of any authority, based on an official investigation, that concludes that open theism is compatible with the Catholic Faith. Until this happens I must be suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 basically the whole idea of this philosophy is that God does not know all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 4 2005, 08:13 PM']basically the whole idea of this philosophy is that God does not know all? [right][snapback]810901[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I read some stuff by some of the people who defend open theism and there seems to be different version of it (correct me if I'm wrong people). I assume one could say that God only chooses to not know everything so it doesn't take away from His omniscience because He could be omniscient if He wanted to be, but He has chosen to know some things only as possibilities because this is supposedly the only conceivable way that we can have free-will. Of course the consequence of this kind of thinking is that God becomes a temporal being, not God, and the concept of omniscience loses itself because its not actual. But anyway, the first point, God becomes a temporal being because our timeline is coincident with God's "time", which is an eternal now or sorts (not in the sense this is spoken of in Catholic thought). But one might respond that this retort is based on a pagan philosophical bias that assumes God must be totally static when in fact it is perfect for God to change. This is the Biblical vision, yada yada.. If I ever find time I want to read the main books that are out there and see if I can definitely refute the idea that this system can be merged with Catholicism. At this point I don't think this would be difficult to demonstrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 no!!!! it is more about time. It isnt about God "not knowing" or God "choosing not to know" its about the information not even existing...Let me put it like this LD...would you be a heretic to say that God cant see the monkey jumpin on your head? I mean, are you saying God "cant see" or is there no monkey? Open theism is this way. We are not arguing really anything about God, as much as we are arguing about time. The church uses an ancient platioian system of time and it is not accurate in modern cosmology nor scriptural. this is similar to how people say the church used to believe the world was flat, but now we know it isnt. I see it the same way here. You know what? I dont wanna play teacher anymore...give me scripture of clear argument on how open theism is a heresy. Put the ball in your court sir. But answer these questions as well 1.)What is free will? How can God "know" our choices if we freely choose them. 2.) WHy does scripture show God changing his mind? 3.) What do we make of spiritual warfare? DId God want rebellion? 4.)WHat is wrong with a God who relates? Cause if our fullfillment of knowing God is seen in christ we see a God that relates? 5.) How would you intrpret the message of Job? wanna lead me from heresy, lets do this dance.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 4 2005, 09:13 PM']basically the whole idea of this philosophy is that God does not know all? [right][snapback]810901[/snapback][/right] [/quote] please read my big posts on open theism or just "view" cause this is a basic thing that is getting annoying for me and Joeyo to defend over and over again...It is similar to you saying "so um, catholic's worship mary..like is she in the trinity" Open theism was my issue as a protestant, it is what the majority of my training and experience is in, if anything it brought me back to faith and back to the church. This isnt just a lil book I read or some fad p.s. Ironically I had a vew muslim theologians I know who thought of mary like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 I'm going to refrain from posting on this thread any further. I've already expressed my concerns about Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy and what I opine of it. L_D is more than competant, should he wish to, to continue this debate. However, should anyone wish for a definitive ruling on Open Theism I suggest they write to the following address: His Grace Archbishop William Levada Prefect, Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith Piazza del S. Uffizio 11, 00193 Rome, Italy INXC Myles PS) I found this email address: [url="http://mailto:cdf@cfaith.va"]cdf@cfaith.va[/url] from the Holy See's webpage covering [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_14071997_en.html"]the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/url]. Using it might be quicker than writing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 I have a bunch of stuff to throw out there but the JP2 movie is starting so I'm gonna go.. hehe I'll post when I get a chance. Hopefully some other peeps will post in the meantime. Have fun without me people. I'll at least post my stuff tomorow morning or something. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Joey-O Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Thanks for the e-mail address. I just wrote the archbishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 take ur time...Id actually like if some people would read former posts before saying something assine like above. I have finals right now so take ur time. Maybe even read one of the books I recommended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 (edited) edit... I put this in a new thread... Edited December 5, 2005 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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