Matt 17:12-13

[~Susan]

matt 17:12-13

Is this reincarnation? The bible commentaries I consult either do not address this passage or what seems to me turn it into something to justify it's not reincarnation**. Or, why would the apostles perceive that Jesus was speaking of John the Baptist, if Jesus didn't directly say that John the Baptist was Elijah.

Jesus could have been talking about the transfiguration that just occured yes? Also, Luke 1:17 could be read as reincarnation also although I wouldn't think of it if Matt 17:12 wasn't in the Word. (I'm not a new ager into reincarnation - it just looks obvious to me and I guess disturbing since reincarnation is not biblical according to theologians/apolegetics.)

**The Life Application Bible commentary says that Malachi 4:5 says God will send someone LIKE Elijah, which was John the Baptist. But Malachi 4:5 does not say LIKE, it says "I AM GOING TO SEND YOU ELIJAH.'

Also, I've heard from someone that the Vatican is hiding some of our scripture - that they took out some of our bible - not releasing it to the people. Is this so? And if so could they have taken the reincarnation scripture out. But if that was the actual case, then they would have taken out Matthew 17:12 as well probably.

I appreciate your time and pray you and your family have His Joy.

In Christ Jesus,

~Susan

[hyperdulia again]

if anyone is wondering why private judgement is dangerous....

[ironmonk]

There is no such thing as reincarnation.

The Vatican has not hid anything.

To many people pass around lies about the Vatican.

The only good bibles are those authorized by the Catholic Church... those who gave us the Bible know it best....

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John

www.Catholic.com

www.MoralTruth.com

www.ScriptureCatholic.com

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk

[Anna]

Matthew 17:

10 Then the disciples asked him, "Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

11

He said in reply, 11 "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things;

12

but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."

13

Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

Luke 1:

13

But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John.

14

And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth,

15

for he will be great in the sight of (the) Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother's womb,

16

and he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.

17

He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord."

Footnotes on Luke 1:

[13] Do not be afraid: a stereotyped Old Testament phrase spoken to reassure the recipient of a heavenly vision (Genesis 15:1; Joshua 1:9; Daniel 10:12, 19 and elsewhere in Luke 1:30; 2:10). You shall name him John: the name means "Yahweh has shown favor," an indication of John's role in salvation history.

[15] He will drink neither wine nor strong drink: like Samson (Judges 13:4-5) and Samuel (1 Sam 1:11 LXX and 4QSama), John is to be consecrated by Nazirite vow and set apart for the Lord's service.

[17] He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah: John is to be the messenger sent before Yahweh, as described in Malachi 3:1-2. He is cast, moreover, in the role of the Old Testament fiery reformer, the prophet Elijah, who according to Malachi 3:23 (4 :5) is sent before "the great and terrible day of the Lord comes."

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke1.htm

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

Welcome ~Susan. Get acquainted with us all here.

[Cure of Ars]

John the Baptism was a type of Elijah. Just like Adam is a type of Jesus (Rom 5:14). He was not a reincarnation of Elijah. John says so himself.

And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "Who are you?" he admitted and did not deny it, but admitted, "I am not the Messiah." So they asked him, "What are you then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." (John 1:19-21)

The lie about the Vatican taking out scripture comes from the anti-Catholic movie Stigmata. It has no basis in fact. It was not clear what books were scripture for the early Christians. This issues was not settled until the council of Hippo (393 A.D.) and then again at the council of Trent when the reformers took out 6 books from the Old Testament. God bless

[~Susan]

thank you so much cure of ars.

I appreciate your straight forward answer.

~susan

[Norseman82]

if anyone is wondering why private judgement is dangerous....

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner here!

Seriously, Susan, I started raising this exact hypothetical scenario regarding Hebrews 9:27 ("it is appointed that men die once"), yet Elijah was taken up to heaven in a flaming chariot (2 Kings 2:11). How to explain the apparent contradiction? Either interpret scripture less rigidly, or come to the conclusion that John the Baptist is Elijah reincarnated. But I have yet to hear a Christian denomination accept reincarnation, so the latter obviously is not accepted as an explanation. So, a little less rigidity is in order.

I would say as a prerequisite to read the Catechism, paragraphs 109-119. Pay special attention to paragraphs 110 ("In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling,speaking, and narrating then current. 'For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various tyoes of historical writing, inprophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.'"), 115-117, and 119 ("For,of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church whichexercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God'").

I hope this helps in your study of scripture.

Edited July 23, 2003 by Norseman82