The Church's Wealth

[thessalonian]

[quote]"this is for God" and not give any real consideration as to what happens with it. Good [/quote]

Actually I disagree as long as we are doing some due dilligence with regard to where we are giving the money. I am surpized that you would say this considering you give money directly to the homeless (or did I read it wrong). Personally I would not do this but would give the money to a place like Sharing and Caring Hands or the Salvation Army. Many of the homeless are on drugs and alcohol and that is where your money will likely go. It was good to take the one man out for a meal.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1121726' date='Nov 16 2006, 04:14 PM']
Thanks for these thoughful responses. I know that I am a hypocrite because I own nice things like a computer and a leather jacket and all the while I talk about giving money to the poor. Perhaps I am wrong, I believe I do my part for helping the poor though. I befriended a homeless man and used guest pass to bring him to our school cafeteria. He was very grateful, and my roommate and I have taken him out to lunch several times and given him as well as other homeless people significant sums of money.

I offered a man on the streets to sleep in my apartment, but my roommate woudn't have it, because he was afraid for our safety. Maybe he was right that it was dumb, but I also liked to think that Jesus would have done welcomed a cold person into his home. And aren't we supposed to follow the message of Jesus? I talked to my parish priest about this situation and he said that this particular man has seen jail time for assault and battery, and if I want to help the world, I shouldn't put myself in danger.

Sorry to get off track there. Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. Raphael especially, thank you for helping me understand why we need these magnificent pieces of art. It makes sense, although Judas was not a bad person at all before betraying Jesus, so I think that was slightly manipulative to compare people concerned with social work to Judas who is commonly identified with the betrayal of Jesus.
[/quote]
There are good ways to help the poor and bad ways. Simple living has some excellent ideas on the subject.
Never give a homeless person money, if you want to feed them purchase gift certificates at McDonalds, Arbys, KFC and give them out yourself. Make up little paper bags with certificates, combs, toothbrushes, wipes, toothpaste, and applications for welfare and numbers of the local shelters. Add in a rosary and a simple explanation of how to say it. My daughter has turned into a small on-the-street social worker doing this. She even adds job applications to all the local fast-food places, and hands them out to all te people who solicit money from her daily.
Give, but give wisely what people need -simple necessities and a warm hello, not necessarily what they ask for, which is usually money for drugs or alcohol.

[Quietfire]

He wasnt coming off as condescending. I didnt see it that way.

I too have helped the poor directly. Meaning, I have opened up my home to someone in need who was far less fortunate than I or that I gave money directly to a person who was without a home or meal.

I have since then though, gave more to help places like those mentioned that help those in need. That is what they are there for and I feel do a far better job that just an occasional hand out that I can offer.

It may seem that many are leery of those who are homeless, due to possible drug addiction or other problems...it isnt that they are leery or untrustworthy of these unfortunate. One man can make a difference, but many men doing one good work does more good in the end.

That isnt to say that offering a meal is useless, but giving money to food charities..for example..money that paid for a single meal to a single person instead being given to a food pantry will feed so much more than a single man. That is the goal.

I can take a man and feed him with 5 dollars, or I can give that 5 dollars to my local "food bank" and feed 12 people. I find that amazing and it truly lifts my heart to do that because I am helping more, even with my feeble 5 dollars.

If I am asked for money on the street from someone looking for a meal, I always direct them towards the local food pantry or food bank. We have several here where I live. If that individual is hungry, they WILL feed him and from what I do know, they feed them very well. If he is looking to get something else from that generous gift of yours, like say...a fix...then you actually helped in another wonderful way...by denying him the means of getting it.

We had a real problem where I work of people asking for handouts. It got out of control really. We all talked about it and agreed that any money asked for would instead be given to some charity, mostly food banks and such so that it stayed local. After awhile, we got less and less requests for handouts because we were willing to direct them to where the food was.

No one is mocking your sincerety. No one is being condescending towards you. I just wanted you to know that.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Quietfire

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1121767' date='Nov 16 2006, 10:00 PM']
"throw it carelessly at a homeless person out of guilt or worse, self-rightesousness"

You come off as quite condescending here, but maybe I'm wrong and that wasn't a shot at me.

When I help homeless people, it is because I feel empathy for them. Is that so wrong? I was born on the right side of the tracks, and it is therefore my moral obligation to lend a hand to people who weren't.

I just have a problem giving money to something and then never seeing what exactly happened with it. I like to see results instead of just believing they are taking place. I'm skeptical only because I know quite a few priests who at this point in their life just look at priesthood as something to do to make a living, but their heart isn't in it anymore. It is sad, but it is a reality. And because of that, I like to see where my money is going. It would be very dumb, in my opinion, to just put money in the collection basket thinking "this is for God" and not give any real consideration as to what happens with it. Good intentions are not good enough, in my opinion.

So in just a few posts, I have already shown traits of both Judas and doubting Thomas...
[/quote]

Once again you have been caught by something accidental to my presentation and thus been distracted from the essence. Very rarely when I am involved in disputation will I ever make any reference to the person of my interlocutor. Its bad form to make ad hominem attacks and in addition to being unkind it also highlights a weakness in your argument. If you need to divert attention from your own points to something about the person you're arguing with, in my opinion, it shows up that your standpoint lacks real substance and illustrates a reliance upon rhetorical tricks. I like to think, at least, that I am not the kind of person who needs to rely on those kind of tactics. In order to avoid further misunderstandings and the chance for causing further offence I'll try and present myself more curtly and clearly this time:

Giving things, whether to the Church or to the poor, should have as its motivation a sincere love of God. It was not my intention to establish a hierarchy of goods in this instance merely to highlight that it is better to do something inspired by love of God than to carry out an action under some other or, worse, contrary impetus.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1121681' date='Nov 16 2006, 03:18 PM']
Don't you think that it can be difficult to concentrate on faith when you are struggling to eat and keep warm. These people may not even be properly educated about Christianity and Catholicism. It's not like most homeless people are using their free time to look into religion. They don't have that luxury that all of us have, sitting inside of our warm homes chatting about faith on our expensive computers.

By helping provide these people with basic human needs (food, shelter, etc.) in the name of God, I believe we are enabling them to find themselves spiritually.

Again, this is just my opinion, and maybe you disagree.
[/quote]

You'd be surprised. The homeless people I have met always seem to be pretty darned happy...sure, they want the necessities and they have every right to them and we as a society and as a Church should do what we can, but don't underestimate the human spirit. The poor are generally very faith-filled, even if that faith isn't the best informed. It's the people who've made themselves poor by worldly attachment (i.e. spent all their money on drugs, booze, etc., or, if born poor, spent what little they had on useless things) that are bitter because of their poverty.

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1121741' date='Nov 16 2006, 04:30 PM']
Or maybe Judas wan't such a great person after all. Some of you would know better than I would. I have heard varying things. The story you are telling I think is where Mary Magdelene is oiling Jesus with expensive perfume. Judas claims that its wasteful and that the perfume money could have been given to the poor. Jesus responds with "the poor ye shall have always with you, but me ye shall not have always". Right?

But I have heard people say that Judas had alterior motives for this. Anyone know?
[/quote]
Yes, the Scriptures say that He didn't really care for the poor, but only wanted to be against Jesus. The Scriptures also say that he stole from the funds the Apostles used to survive. He was doing sinful things for a long time, I think.

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1121767' date='Nov 16 2006, 05:00 PM']
When I help homeless people, it is because I feel empathy for them. Is that so wrong? I was born on the right side of the tracks, and it is therefore my moral obligation to lend a hand to people who weren't.[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with feeling empathy with the poor and helping them. That's very good and very important...it just needs to be put in context. The more important thing is the salvation of souls and the glory due to God. Now, I believe God is glorified more when we give to the poor than when we build superfluous statues, but we must be careful to make sure that when we give to the poor, we attribute it to God and invite the poor into deeper relationship with Him. Otherwise, it gives only a little glory to God, but if the poor come flocking to the church and they all believe strongly in God because a good Christian showed them charity, then God will be all the more glorified. "These are the riches of the Church," said St. Lawrence with his arms around the poor faithful when the wealth of the Church was demanded of him by the Roman Emperor.

However, there are certainly good uses of funds on luxurious items for the Church. Is it necessary to have everything covered in gold? Not at all. However, everyone, poor and rich, needs to be reminded of God and therefore needs a presence of religious art. So I would say that it is a proper use of money to build reasonable artistic projects so that the faithful, all of them, will be able to be raised up to God. However, I would say that adding an extra statue that will hardly ever be noticed is kinda pointless. Is it okay? Sure; God will use it for good somehow. Maybe God's purpose for it is to be sold later in a time of real need for the Church...maybe some small child will see that little-noticed statue and it will inspire him or her to be a great saint. In my humble opinion, the best churches are those with grand sanctuaries, humble but devotional naves, simple side chapels, and utilitarian bathrooms. When we see the purpose of sacred art, we should be able to see just how important it is in different places.

[quote]I just have a problem giving money to something and then never seeing what exactly happened with it. I like to see results instead of just believing they are taking place. I'm skeptical only because I know quite a few priests who at this point in their life just look at priesthood as something to do to make a living, but their heart isn't in it anymore. It is sad, but it is a reality. And because of that, I like to see where my money is going. It would be very dumb, in my opinion, to just put money in the collection basket thinking "this is for God" and not give any real consideration as to what happens with it. Good intentions are not good enough, in my opinion.[/quote]

Yes, I understand. There are too many priests who have plenty of luxuries. I think sometimes priests need a few luxuries (unless they are in religious orders) in order to help them attract people to the Church (as a catechetics student, I can tell you that powerpoint presentations beat out chalkboards any day of the week).

[quote]So in just a few posts, I have already shown traits of both Judas and doubting Thomas...
[/quote]

Don't be hard on yourself. We all have our opinions and our misunderstandings. I can't tell you how many times I have needed to tell Jesus honestly, "I need to see you!" I feel like poor Thomas everytime.

[93 Phillies]

Okay, I just read all of the above posts, and I don't like to respond to all at once, but I'm slightly pressed for time. I tend to overanalyze things, so for the future, don't be offended if I interpret something you are saying the wrong way. After all, this is the internet, and without hearing the tone a person is talking in, and being able to see body language, it is sometimes difficult to interpret what someone is saying.

cmothrofpirl: that is a great idea about the packages with rosaries and gift certificates and definitely something I hope to do. Sometimes I want to buy someone food, but I am rushing to class, and just give them money hoping they do the right thing with it. I guess that is not very wise, because some people are homeless because of their poor financial management skills. Again, thanks for the great idea.

So Judas wasn't so great afterall? Did any of the apostles suspect this before the betrayal? Sorry, my knowledge of the Bible is unfortunately very limited. You don't even need to answer this question. I should just read it for myself.

edit: Good to be here, rev

Edited November 16, 2006 by 93 Phillies

[phatcatholic]

here are some articles that might help:

[url="http://davidmacd.com/catholic/isn_church_rich.htm"]http://davidmacd.com/catholic/isn_church_rich.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/answers2.html"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/answers2.html[/url] (see #4 and 5)
[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20060112200525/http://www.catholicapologetics.net/WORLDLINESS.htm"]http://web.archive.org/web/20060112200525/...WORLDLINESS.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=242"]http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=242[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1121907' date='Nov 16 2006, 06:11 PM']
edit: Good to be here, rev
[/quote]



yAH....Im special...

oh, looks like you have been phatcatholicised...He is the Source of the Source.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1122195' date='Nov 17 2006, 01:23 AM']
oh, looks like you have been phatcatholicised...He is the Source of the Source.
[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

Im glad phillies came here. He is a good guy, I just wish Jefferson would have took the challenge and came here.

[93 Phillies]

Haha Jefferson???

Thanks for the links phatcatholic. I am slowly but surely learning to appreciate instead of feel guilty about the beautiful art that belongs to the Church.

[Lil Red]

i want to thank everyone for a really good discussion here. for myself, it has been enlightening and helpful.

[Era Might]

[quote]Thus, part of the teaching and most ancient practice of the Church is her conviction that she is obliged by her vocation - she herself, her ministers and each of her members - to relieve the misery of the suffering, both far and near, not only out of her "abundance" but also out of her "necessities." Faced by cases of need, one cannot ignore them in favor of superfluous church ornaments and costly furnishings for divine worship; on the contrary it could be obligatory to sell these goods in order to provide food, drink, clothing and shelter for those who lack these things. As has been already noted, here we are shown a "hierarchy of values" - in the framework of the right to property - between"having" and "being," especially when the "having" of a few can be to the detriment of the "being" of many others.

--Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Letter "Sollicitudo rei socialis"[/quote]
[quote]Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

There they made him a supper; Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those at table with him.

Mary took a pound of costly ointment of pure nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the ointment.

But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said, "Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it.

Jesus said, "Let her alone, let her keep it for the day of my burial. The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me."

--John 12:1-8[/quote]
There is obviously a tension here. There is nothing wrong with spending money to give glory to God; in fact, it is something we owe him. He is not stingy with his grace, and we shouldn't be stingy with giving him honor and glory. We are corporal beings, and we give God praise through corporal beauty.

However, as Pope John Paul II points out, corporal beauty is not our God, but a gift to our God, and sometimes it may be necessary to help the poor with the Church's resources. This goes back to St. Lawrence, who was the treasurer for the Church in Rome; when the Romans demanded to know where the Church's treasure was, he pointed to the poor, and said those are the Church's treasures.

As with most things, the Church recognizes the middle way and walks the line between poverty of beauty and greed of spirit.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1122220' date='Nov 17 2006, 02:42 AM']
Haha Jefferson???
[/quote]


You remember that? Woah, those were some battles. WHat do you remember? None of the posters over here really know about it, but I learned most of what I know from guys like PhatCatholic and the other faithful here.

[93 Phillies]

I remember him being a fundamentalist and actively trying to convert people via basketball message boards. What a guy. I would love to see the debates between him and some people here.