Crusader_4 Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Alright, Hey phatmassers I need some deep theology here. Due to certain circumstances in my life this question has become somewhat semi paramount. Alright, In order to have a sacremental marriage it has been my understanding that both the women and the man are requried to have the sacrament of baptism. Thus a Catholic marrying an Anglican would constintute a sacramental marriage because both have valid sacramental baptisms. Similar to a Catholic marrying a Catholic. Now what interests me and is of some grave concern to me is what in the case of a Catholic who wants to marry an anabaptist, such as a mennonite. Since the mennonites do not practice a sacremental baptism in the case in question the bride would not have been baptised. Thus if they chose to be married would it be a sacrament? If not would it then be considered a natural union, and if such what are the consequences of this? I tried posting this a while back on the Question and Answer but never recieved an adequate response so I am hoping some of you guys can help me out. I await an answer with eager anticipation. -William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I'm not sure on the differences between the sacrament and the natural bond. But your other question is easy to answer: no Christian baptism for one of the parties means no sacrament. There is the case of "baptism of desire", but as long as you're alive, healthy, and able to get to a priest (three things I hope apply to the spouse-to-be), this doesn't count. As a side note, before you can marry a non-baptised spouse you have to get the OK from your bishop, and promise to raise any children Catholic, etc. That, technicalities aside, is much the same as with a non-Catholic baptised Christian. I hope someone else can answer on the point of sacrament/natural bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader_4 Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 In this case I cannot see any issue of raising the kids catholic or anything of such, but I am still interested as you have mentinoed the effects of the difference between a sacremetnal and natural bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 The "sacramental" aspect is the part I do not agree with here. Coming from a baptist perspective, and after leading a CofC (church of christ/free church) friend to the Faith, We both were told by various priests that as long as the baptism is trinitarian than it is a viable baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader_4 Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 however mennonites may not follow that formula but their intention is not to have a sacraments as much as it is an outward sign to the community of an inward conversion, thus no grace is conveyed or washing of sin allowing someone into the body of Christ thus it is not sacramental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader_4 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Hey I was wondering if anyone had any more insights because I would really like an answer to this question. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 It's a natural bond. [quote name='The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by L. Ott'] Every valid contract of Marriage between Christians is of itself a sacrament. (Sent. certa.) From the sacramental contract of marriage emerges the Bond of Marriage, which binds both marriage partners to a lifelong indivisible community of life. (De fide.) [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatty07 Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Maybe a good starting point is that the Church accepts and gives due honor to marriages that occur outside the Christian faith. It's sort of a natural law perspective. If a Hindu and a Zoroastrian choose to make a lifelong monogamous bond and to raise a family, that's a real marriage. It reflects the plan of the Creator written in their hearts. Since this "natural marriage" is a REAL and valid marriage, it can never be dissolved while both of them live. I.e., if they divorced, and one converted to Catholicism, the convert would need the natural marriage annuled before they would be free to marry in the Church. So the distinction isn't about looking down on natural marriage, we uphold them and even insist on their validity and indissolubility. However, Christ established marriage as a sacrament. So for those of us who live in Christ, marriage means more. It's a channel of grace, and a sign to the world, etc. That marriage is a sacrament because it shows and mediates God's Covenant fidelity to His people in Christ. When a non-Christian person enters into marriage, this is the part that is not present. I think it's important to emphasize that we're not 'dissing' natural marriage here... we affirm that their marriage means everything they say it means! It's just that we go on to affirm that when Christians marry, it means even more. A marriage between a Catholic and a non-Christian person is now common, though forbidden until somewhat recently. It still requires a dispensation, which any priest can explain and walk you through. Something that will (or at least should) come up is whether the faith of the Catholic party will be endangered by the union. One clarification on the promise regarding children: The Catholic party must promise to do all in their power to raise their children in the Faith. The non-Catholic party must acknowledge that their spouse has this obligation. That's something that changed with the 1983 Code of Canon Law. Hope this helps more than it confuses... I'll be glad to tackle or look up any more questions! Peace, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 That does clarify things. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 [quote name='beatty07' post='1172229' date='Jan 21 2007, 09:21 AM'] Maybe a good starting point is that the Church accepts and gives due honor to marriages that occur outside the Christian faith. It's sort of a natural law perspective. If a Hindu and a Zoroastrian choose to make a lifelong monogamous bond and to raise a family, that's a real marriage. It reflects the plan of the Creator written in their hearts. Since this "natural marriage" is a REAL and valid marriage, it can never be dissolved while both of them live. I.e., if they divorced, and one converted to Catholicism, the convert would need the natural marriage annuled before they would be free to marry in the Church. So the distinction isn't about looking down on natural marriage, we uphold them and even insist on their validity and indissolubility. However, Christ established marriage as a sacrament. So for those of us who live in Christ, marriage means more. It's a channel of grace, and a sign to the world, etc. That marriage is a sacrament because it shows and mediates God's Covenant fidelity to His people in Christ. When a non-Christian person enters into marriage, this is the part that is not present. I think it's important to emphasize that we're not 'dissing' natural marriage here... we affirm that their marriage means everything they say it means! It's just that we go on to affirm that when Christians marry, it means even more. A marriage between a Catholic and a non-Christian person is now common, though forbidden until somewhat recently. It still requires a dispensation, which any priest can explain and walk you through. Something that will (or at least should) come up is whether the faith of the Catholic party will be endangered by the union. One clarification on the promise regarding children: The Catholic party must promise to do all in their power to raise their children in the Faith. The non-Catholic party must acknowledge that their spouse has this obligation. That's something that changed with the 1983 Code of Canon Law. Hope this helps more than it confuses... I'll be glad to tackle or look up any more questions! Peace, Steven [/quote] Even if there is a marraige between a Catholic and a non-Christian, it can only be done in a Catholic Church and it is not a sacrament since both parites have to be baptised for it to be a sacrament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1172906' date='Jan 21 2007, 11:02 PM'] Even if there is a marriage between a Catholic and a non-Christian, it can only be done in a Catholic Church[/quote] I thought that there was an exception to this requirement for "pastoral" reasons, or am I thinking of the nuptual mass/no mass thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader_4 Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share Posted January 22, 2007 Even in the case I am dealing with here it is within the Christian tradition however, the girl in question is an anabaptist. Thanks for your insightful responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatty07 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 A mixed marriage of any type is often given a dispensation to occur outside a Catholic Church... usually a different Church, not just a hotel or something. Crusader4, if by anabaptist you mean Mennonite, then I'm afraid it's not that simple. Mennonite baptism is presumed invalid by the Church, so for questions like this she would be considered "non-Christian." I'm not quite sure why they don't have valid baptism, whether it's a defect in form or in faith. The only way for a sacramental marriage, then, would be if she were baptized, if not Catholic, then at least into a community with valid Baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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