2 Ideas. Are They Catholic?

[Paddington]

Are these 2 ideas Catholic?

1A. "A baby that will not be raised in the faith should not be baptized."
1B. "A baby that is very unlikely to be raised in the faith should not be baptized."
1C. "Baptism (infant or otherwise) will only make Hell burn hotter for the baptized that go to Hell."

2A. "Hell will burn less hot for those who continue in the faith with Sacraments and then go apostate in their last week of life compared to those who were always outside of the faith."

Thanks,
Paddington

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1197596' date='Feb 17 2007, 01:25 AM']Are these 2 ideas Catholic?

1A. "A baby that will not be raised in the faith should not be baptized."
1B. "A baby that is very unlikely to be raised in the faith should not be baptized."
1C. "Baptism (infant or otherwise) will only make Hell burn hotter for the baptized that go to Hell."[/quote]

1A and 1B are pastoral practices which most priests would back-up, the reason being that it is the parent's right to have a child baptized and it is on their authority over the child that the practice is generally used.

1C is Catholic, I think (I'm hesitant to say that without some clarifications). The baptized will suffer more in hell than the unbaptized, assuming that they were subsequently catechized (especially in the case of infant baptism). If they were not properly catechized, their guilt decreases, possibly even to the point of mitigating mortal sin, therefore keeping them out of hell.

[quote]2A. "Hell will burn less hot for those who continue in the faith with Sacraments and then go apostate in their last week of life compared to those who were always outside of the faith."[/quote]

There are too many individual factors to be considered. Were those outside the faith horrible sinners or did they try to follow what they knew best?

[Paddington]

Thanks Raphael

[quote name='Raphael' post='1197658' date='Feb 17 2007, 04:33 AM']There are too many individual factors to be considered. Were those outside the faith horrible sinners or did they try to follow what they knew best?[/quote]


Let's say they were horrible sinners. And so was the late-life apostate during that short stint.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1197596' date='Feb 17 2007, 01:25 AM']Are these 2 ideas Catholic?

1A. "A baby that will not be raised in the faith should not be baptized."
1B. "A baby that is very unlikely to be raised in the faith should not be baptized."[/quote]
I would agree with Raphael on his answer, adding a bit from St. Thomas Aquinas. In the Summa Theologica, he asks the question:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#10"]Article 10. Whether children of Jews or other unbelievers be baptized against the will of their parents? (link)[/url]

After presenting the "objections," he reasons that they should not be baptized.

[quote name='Paddington' post='1197596' date='Feb 17 2007, 01:25 AM']1C. "Baptism (infant or otherwise) will only make Hell burn hotter for the baptized that go to Hell."

2A. "Hell will burn less hot for those who continue in the faith with Sacraments and then go apostate in their last week of life compared to those who were always outside of the faith."

Thanks,
Paddington [/quote]It seems like 1C is a bit more related to 2A. Anyway, I tend to not think about "degrees of hell", for the same reason I don't think about "degrees of heaven." Both focus on the question "How much joy/pain can I get from God?" instead of, "How much can I give to God?" Paraphrasing the common saying, "I would rather be the lowest in heaven than the highest in hell."

If my dissuading you from this kind of question has failed, I can give you a few ideas on ways to think about the fundamental question of degrees of reward or punishment.

First, St. Paul seems to address the issue of culpability, and the gravity of transgression, when addressing the Jews in his letter to the Romans. If we make a parallel of the Christian who is baptized and properly catechized with a Jew who was under the law:[quote name='Romans 2:9']Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.[/quote]I would offer that he means that Jews would be first to be rewarded or punished based on the standard of God's Law, because they know better. The Greek (i.e. non-Jew) would be "last" to be punished, because they are not as familiar with God's Law.

Later, St. Paul writes, "For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation." (Romans 4:15). St. Paul isn't claiming that those outside the Covenant get a "free pass," but it seems that our knowledge of the law makes us more culpable.

Since I can't recall if or where Jesus discussing this issue of culpability based on knowledge, I hope that St. Paul's letter to the Romans might aid you.

Second, check out a couple questions from the Summa:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2076.htm#3"]Whether ignorance excuses from sin altogether? Whether ignorance diminishes a sin? (link)[/url]

Third, if you are interested in literature, you might want to read the Divine Comedy by Dante. It isn't "doctrine," but it may provide a Catholic way of thinking about the torments of hell.

Finally, I'd recommend a book called, simply, "Hell." Here's an [url="http://www.amazon.com/Hell-Plus-How-Avoid/dp/0895553465/sr=8-1/qid=1171701619/ref=sr_1_1/102-7911648-6995357?ie=UTF8&s=books"]Amazon link[/url]. It's a pretty quick read, and it attacks the subject of hell from a number of perspectives.

Hope that helps!

[Paddington]

Mateo,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Peace,
Paddington

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1197677' date='Feb 17 2007, 07:13 AM']If my dissuading you from this kind of question has failed,[/quote]

If I ever become Catholic, then I will need to make sure that my soteriology is Catholic. That can be a lot of work. It dawned on me recently that I might not understand Catholic soteriology near as much as I had thought. I think my awkward and selfish question overlaps very much with the essence of blessings and cursings in the New Covenant. It gives depth to understanding the Sacraments, grace/merit and ecclesiology.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1197698' date='Feb 17 2007, 06:59 AM']Mateo,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Peace,
Paddington
If I ever become Catholic, then I will need to make sure that my soteriology is Catholic. That can be a lot of work. It dawned on me recently that I might not understand Catholic soteriology near as much as I had thought. I think my awkward and selfish question overlaps very much with the essence of blessings and cursings in the New Covenant. It gives depth to understanding the Sacraments, grace/merit and ecclesiology.[/quote]
I'm no expert, but my senior thesis is on soteriology, so if you'd like, you and I can try to figure it out together. It'll benefit you by helping you understand Catholic soteriology and it will benefit me by helping me to learn how to explain it.

Let me know if you like the idea.

God bless,

Micah

[N/A Gone]

I love catholic soteriology...wasnt really that hard to come from evangelical to catholic in that sense for me.

Dont know how big of a reader you are but

Salvation controversy by Jimmy Akin is a great comparitive non-polemic book on the topic

Edited February 17, 2007 by Revprodeji

[Mr.Cat]

[b]1A. "A baby that will not be raised in the faith should not be baptized."[/b]
No one ought to be denied the Sacraments without sufficient reason, although the Church is the one to make a judgment in this matter for there is merit to this statement. But this should not to be the individual for they could then be responsible for sin; therefore by referring it to the Church it takes such a burden from the person to a Priest.

[b]1B. "A baby that is very unlikely to be raised in the faith should not be baptized."[/b]
Same as above... But Godparents ought to assist in the raising of the child Catholic.

[b]1C. "Baptism (infant or otherwise) will only make Hell burn hotter for the baptized that go to Hell."[/b]
We do not know how God will punish us in eternal damnation but we do know from the Sacred Scriptures to what much is given much will be demanded. Those whom know of their obligations will be punished more than those who knew not. So it seems to me that as a rule of thumb this seems wrong but again, we don’t know for certain. But certainly if there is more punishment it is not because the person was Baptized as an infant but because they chose to reject it.

[b]2A. "Hell will burn less hot for those who continue in the faith with Sacraments and then go apostate in their last week of life compared to those who were always outside of the faith."[/b]
Same as above...

[thessalonian]

2A. "Hell will burn less hot for those who continue in the faith with Sacraments and then go apostate in their last week of life compared to those who were always outside of the faith."

I think the answer to this one can be found in Luke 12, around v. 40, where Jesus speaks of the servant who did his masters will but then later begins to get drunk and beat the servants. He is sent with the unbelievers, while the one, apparently who did similar things, but with less knowledge "recieved a light beating", perhaps an indication of purgatory. "To the one who is given much, much is expected". We are more accountable in the Church and if we do not persevere in the end with all the grace from the sacraments and all, I think it will not go well in hell. James 3:1 also says that teachers are held more accountable. Hebrews 6 also tells us that the one who has been sanctified and turns from the faith is worse off than had he never known the truth. There are a couple of other passages I can't recall offhand that indicate this as well.

Edited February 18, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Some of the passages I am talking about.

Heb 6
: For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5: and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6: if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.


Heb 10

29: How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

30: For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."

31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


2 Pet 2:2
20: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21: For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22: It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

James 3:1
1: Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.

Luke 12
47: And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
48: But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

[N/A Gone]

Man is bound by the sacraments, God is not---St. Augustine

I think in the matters of "he goes to hell" or "he goes to purgatory" Or "he received a light burn" or whatever is not a matter in which we should focus on. Our goal is to bring as many into full glory of the divine. Focus on the target, focus on the goal. Lets not overstep and assume something that we are not in a position to judge.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1198598' date='Feb 17 2007, 10:24 PM']Luke 12
47: And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
48: But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.[/quote]Or, as Peter Parker's uncle Ben said in Spiderman 1, "with great power. comes great responsibility."

Jokes aside, great quotes, thes.

[thessalonian]

My post was only meant to shed light on the matter. Your are correct. We can never judge and in the end trust God's mercy and justice. Further, I think the reflection of such passages as I posted should be regarding our accountability for the great grace that God has given us to use it to bring about his glory in the world and to save as many souls as possible. We are accoutable for living the faith and persevering in it. He will give us the grace to succeed.

Edited February 18, 2007 by thessalonian

[Paddington]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1197883' date='Feb 17 2007, 02:48 PM']I'm no expert, but my senior thesis is on soteriology, so if you'd like, you and I can try to figure it out together. It'll benefit you by helping you understand Catholic soteriology and it will benefit me by helping me to learn how to explain it.

Let me know if you like the idea.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]

Micah,

Thank you.
Can you make me a standing offer that I can pm you now or in the future?
I am thinking that we could start with me laying out my basic understanding, and then you could tell me what is wrong and what is lacking.

Peace,
Paddington