Are The Good Friday Prayers "anti Semitic"?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1309623' date='Jul 2 2007, 03:41 PM']I wouldn't place too much confidence in what people claim the Talmud says. I would require full citations. How many Catholics have read the Summa and understand it in context, let alone the Talmud?[/quote]
The Babylonian Talmud is pretty perspicuous in its anti-Christian elements.

[Era Might]

That may or may not be the case, but I wouldn't trust a non-Jew for that kind of information without checking for myself and understanding the context. Hopefully non-Christians do likewise when they are told that the Gospels are anti-Semitic.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1309648' date='Jul 2 2007, 03:54 PM']That may or may not be the case, but I wouldn't trust a non-Jew for that kind of information without checking for myself and understanding the context. Hopefully non-Christians do likewise when they are told that the Gospels are anti-Semitic.[/quote]
I'm tempted to post quotes and links, but much of it is too vile to reproduce.

[Era Might]

PM a few to me and I will try to verify them for myself.

[goldenchild17]

I agree. But would you do this only for Jewish texts? Or would you have to inspect every religious text of every religion that exists? It certainly would be thorough no doubt and I think it helpful to do so in certain cases (I have a copy of the quran and the book of mormon for reference). But I think it would be quite inconvenient to study the teachings of every single religion to its core. If you would only advocate this for some religions then why, if I might ask? Are some non-Catholic religions more holy than others, warranting a double-check on teaching? Maybe its a difference in our religious beliefs but I personally don't see the Jews as any more close to salvation than any other non-Catholic faith. But that's maybe a different topic.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1309658' date='Jul 2 2007, 03:59 PM']PM a few to me and I will try to verify them for myself.[/quote]
Ok, but the thing is I don't think it's fair to use such texts to judge contemporary Judaism.

[Era Might]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1309666' date='Jul 2 2007, 05:00 PM']I agree. But would you do this only for Jewish texts? Or would you have to inspect every religious text of every religion that exists? It certainly would be thorough no doubt and I think it helpful to do so in certain cases (I have a copy of the quran and the book of mormon for reference). But I think it would be quite inconvenient to study the teachings of every single religion to its core. If you would only advocate this for some religions then why, if I might ask? Are some non-Catholic religions more holy than others, warranting a double-check on teaching? Maybe its a difference in our religious beliefs but I personally don't see the Jews as any more close to salvation than any other non-Catholic faith. But that's maybe a different topic.[/quote]
I would do it for every religion (as far as possible), especially if I were commenting publicly. If someone claims that a particular book says so-and-so, then I think it is not too much to ask that he give full citations so that it can be verified independently. It's not a matter of studying everything about a religion, but when talking about specific quotes, and if they are so blatantly blasphemous as argued, then it shouldn't be hard to back that up with citations. I think we should always be concerned with representing others accurately, because we know what it's like when people make outrageous and false claims about Catholicism.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1309681' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:07 PM']I would do it for every religion (as far as possible), especially if I were commenting publicly. If someone claims that a particular book says so-and-so, then I think it is not too much to ask that he give full citations so that it can be verified independently. It's not a matter of studying everything about a religion, but when talking about specific quotes, and if they are so blatantly blasphemous as argued, then it shouldn't be hard to back that up with citations. I think we should always be concerned with representing others accurately, because we know what it's like when people make outrageous and false claims about Catholicism.[/quote]
True. And it should be noted that the Talmud has been edited over the centuries and something found in an ancient Talmudic writing may no longer be a part of contemporary Judaism.

[Apotheoun]

The copies of the Talmud of today are not identical with the Talmud of the Middle Ages, because the Church required that the Jewish authorities excise portions of the texts over the course of many centuries, which minimized the anti-Christian elements. Now, it also must be borne in mind that the Talmud is a huge multi-volume work, and that it rarely speaks about Christianity at all, and that it is not a liturgical text. But -- on the other hand -- the prayer book, called the [i]Siddur[/i], still contains the anti-Christian benediction that has formed the cornerstone of daily Jewish worship since the Council of Yavneh.

That said, I see no reason why the Jews or the Church should have to alter liturgical texts in order to conform to modern politically correct sensibilities.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I feel like restating a point I made in a recent PM to Era. I once had a Jewish friend who was very much into his heritage and he would often talk about the common presence of anti-Christian jabs in Jewish literature and historical works. I even remember scooping up a collection of Jewish short stories and many of them included blasphemous jokes about the Pope and Christ.
I even remember reading an article in a Jewish magazine just a couple years ago that was filled with all manner of slanders against Christ, Our Lady, the Pope and the Gospels in general.

I'm not trying to suggest that contemporary Judaism is intrinsically anti-Christian or that most Jews are anti-Christian, but it seems naive to me to assume that Judaism is wholly friendly to Christianity, even today.
I do tend to believe that there may be a certain double standard when anti-semitic attitudes are forced upon us at every turn while anti-Catholicism is more or less deemed acceptable.

I saw a news show the other day talking about the rampant anti-Catholicism in the media (pedophile jokes, etc.) and the conclusion of the show was that this stuff is acceptable because the Church protected pedophiles and deserves to be ridiculed.

[toledo_jesus]

I think it's well within our rights to pray that the Jews come around.
We're going to damage relations no matter what we do, so we might as well damage them by speaking the truth rather than damage them by speaking some cotton candy nonsense about ecumenism or interfaith dialogue.

[Apotheoun]

The [i]Nizzahon Vetus[/i] is a Jewish anti-Christian text from the medieval period, and it is available in English in a book called, "The Jewish-Christian Debate in the High Middle Ages."

One of the things that the author of the [i]Nizzahon Vetus[/i] likes to do is to alter Mary's name, calling her "Haria" (which is based on the Aramaic word for excrement, [i]haraya[/i]) instead of Maria, in order to insult both the Mother of God and her Son.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' post='1309763' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:48 PM']I think it's well within our rights to pray that the Jews come around.
We're going to damage relations no matter what we do, so we might as well damage them by speaking the truth rather than damage them by speaking some cotton candy nonsense about ecumenism or interfaith dialogue.[/quote]


I was just think Christ's prayer on the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Could be offensive to some, why because they could take it that they are not very smart.

[Socrates]

No, no, and no.

People in the Church these days worry way too much about political correctness and "not offending anybody." The anti-Catholics, as well as liberals in the Church, will always find something to be offended at, and the more concessions are made to them, the harder they'll press for more "reform."

While it doesn't matter much to me what the Church decides on this particular issue, political correctness should not be a factor when making liturgical decisions.

Edited July 3, 2007 by Socrates

[curtins]

my 2 cents and I know this has already been discussed:

If I were writing the prayer I wouldn't call the Jews "faithless". While I understand that is applying to faith in Christ, it doesn't say that in the prayer. It says faithless, not faithless in Christ. So its kinda broad. Is it anti semetic? absolutely not. I just thinks a bit uncharitable.