Working On Sunday

[Noel's angel]

Generally, the organist isn't the person who leads the choir, holds practices etc. Our choirs have two or three people 'in charge' of different things. For example, my role is to help the singers learn new harmonies, come up with different arrangements, to correspond with the priests with regards to hymns etc. and other small duties like transposing pieces of music. Another person takes care of conducting the singers and a third person takes charge of things like arranging practices and looking through the readings to find suitable hymns.
I don't think it's sinful to get paid for such duties, but I certainly would not even think about taking money to do it. It's really not that difficult as long as you're well organised.

Secondly, I know people who have music degrees, plus high grades in various instruments, and they don't know half as much as people who have been playing music for 40 years or more without any formal training. My friend is doing a degree in music and she has grade 8 piano yet she has much less musical knowledge than myself. I've had 4 years classical training for violin, and have been playing since I was 6. I've never done any grades in music. I didn't even do GCSE music, but I am regarded as a very gifted and knowledgeable musician. I've won competitions, I've played on television, radio, I've toured around the UK and I've played in the soundtrack of a well-known film. I've been paid well for all these things, but I would never take money from the Church for my duties in the choir. (I'm not trying to boast about my abilities, but I do accept that God has given me talents that should not be hidden).

Edited August 10, 2007 by Noel's angel

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1355011' date='Aug 10 2007, 09:27 AM']Generally, the organist isn't the person who leads the choir, holds practices etc. Our choirs have two or three people 'in charge' of different things. For example, my role is to help the singers learn new harmonies, come up with different arrangements, to correspond with the priests with regards to hymns etc. and other small duties like transposing pieces of music. Another person takes care of conducting the singers and a third person takes charge of things like arranging practices and looking through the readings to find suitable hymns.
I don't think it's sinful to get paid for such duties, but I certainly would not even think about taking money to do it. It's really not that difficult as long as you're well organised.

Secondly, I know people who have music degrees, plus high grades in various instruments, and they don't know half as much as people who have been playing music for 40 years or more without any formal training. My friend is doing a degree in music and she has grade 8 piano yet she has much less musical knowledge than myself. I've had 4 years classical training for violin, and have been playing since I was 6. I've never done any grades in music. I didn't even do GCSE music, but I am regarded as a very gifted and knowledgeable musician. I've won competitions, I've played on television, radio, I've toured around the UK and I've played in the soundtrack of a well-known film. I've been paid well for all these things, but I would never take money from the Church for my duties in the choir. (I'm not trying to boast about my abilities, but I do accept that God has given me talents that should not be hidden).[/quote]

Organists have families too and are deserving of a living wage just like anyone else. Maybe thats a small detail to you, but organists have to pay their bills like everyone else, they don't get free gas and electric because they play for God. They have to be available every day of the week to play funerals and every weekend to play weddings. Most of them direct all the choirs as well.
My Church organist plays all the Masses including the funerals and weddings, first Communions, all the special programs, directs the adult, handbell and childrens choir, puts on the Christmas and Good Friday productions etc.
Kindly tell me when she would be available for steady outside income???

[Groo the Wanderer]

I start a new job next week. One of my shifts is 6pm-6am, starting Sunday night. I do not think is is a sin because it is a 24x7 business and I will be helping to keep the networks up and running. If they go down, the business goes down...and you won't get your weekly allotment of credit card offers.

It is also necessary for me to work since it is part of my team's normal work shift and I have to support my family. Because I don't go in until 6pm, I can still attend Mass AND teach my CCD class at 315pm


I thunk it through before accepting the job offer

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1355050' date='Aug 10 2007, 03:51 PM']Organists have families too and are deserving of a living wage just like anyone else. Maybe thats a small detail to you, but organists have to pay their bills like everyone else, they don't get free gas and electric because they play for God. They have to be available every day of the week to play funerals and every weekend to play weddings. Most of them direct all the choirs as well.
My Church organist plays all the Masses including the funerals and weddings, first Communions, all the special programs, directs the adult, handbell and childrens choir, puts on the Christmas and Good Friday productions etc.
Kindly tell me when she would be available for steady outside income???[/quote]

My church organist is a music teacher in a school and he gives private music lessons also. He has his own boat (not something a person earning a low wage would be able to afford). Therefore, I don't think he should be putting his hand out at every opportunity just for turning up and accompanying the choir. If there's a funeral during the week, he gets time off school for it. He is allowed to take time out from school (as are altar servers) in order to play at Masses throughout the week. He seems to be doing okay. Things obviously work differently where you come from.
As I said, the organist here is generally not the same person that 'runs' the choir. We have a seperate person for that.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Noel's angel

[jiyoung]

I think if a church is fortunate enough to have enough talented volunteers to make paying someone to do all of the work themselves unnecessary, then that's awesome. But I think a lot of times that's not the case and it's one person doing all of the work alone. It's not that I think you're necessarily wrong, because I for one would do all of it as a volunteer if I had enough money from another job or something. But for one, that much work takes up a lot of time so I wouldn't be able to earn money for another job.

Also, we all know how much the typical musician usually makes...I told my dad that I was trying to choose between catechetics and music, and he said "well, you're starving either way..." I don't think it's exactly a large salary they're getting, either--if I can, I'm thinking about teaching at college level and teaching voice lessons as well so I can, you know, have food and shelter and stuff. So the sacred music for me would be everything but the organ, since I can't play it for beans

Another thing is that I still contend that the DRE position could also be held by a number of volunteers, but it's usually one trained person who does it all and is paid for it. I sort of feel weird because I would be taking money from the church (even though I'd work for it), but I guess it's sort of...comforting...that at least it's not MUCH money.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1355050' date='Aug 10 2007, 09:51 AM']Organists have families too and are deserving of a living wage just like anyone else. Maybe thats a small detail to you, but organists have to pay their bills like everyone else, they don't get free gas and electric because they play for God. They have to be available every day of the week to play funerals and every weekend to play weddings. Most of them direct all the choirs as well.
My Church organist plays all the Masses including the funerals and weddings, first Communions, all the special programs, directs the adult, handbell and childrens choir, puts on the Christmas and Good Friday productions etc.
Kindly tell me when she would be available for steady outside income???[/quote]

Thank you for regarding us as professionals with our own set of professional concerns. I work 50 hours a week for the Church, and while God provides, he unfortunately doesn't cover my rent and utility bills.

My typical work week includes directing adult and children's choirs, preparing a wedding and a funeral (or two), organizing over 100 ministers for five weekend Masses, planning upcoming music, writing prayers of the faithful for Mass, administering my Office's budget, coordinating homebound visits and committal services, and playing for between 5 and 7 Masses a week. While what I do is ministry, it also requires a set of professional skills and competencies that not everyone possess and justice seems to require that I be compensated for those competencies.

[kateri05]

wait thats like a music job meets.... other jobs. lol, ahh the life of a catholic parish, where they try to get the least amount of people to do the most amount of work

[Noel's angel]

Exactly. You aren't just a musician (VaticaIILiturgist). What you're talking about as a musician/secretary/teacher/sacristan-like job. That's not the same as simply being a musician.

In our parish, the following people take care of all the jobs you do:
Each choir has it's own 'director'
The priests and sacristan organise funerals and weddings
The priests organise their own sick visits
The finance committe, along with the priests, decide on money issues.

The only lay people in our parish that are paid a regular salary are the sacristan, the secretary, the housekeeper and the groundsman. Everyone else provide their services voluntarily. (The main organist gets paid when he turns up).

Edited August 12, 2007 by Noel's angel

[adt6247]

I have a related question. I'm a software developer, and tend to work only on the weekdays with my primary job. I occasionally have to quickly put out a metaphorical fire on Saturdays, but not often.

I do, however, accept contract work on the side. I do work some nights and Saturdays. There have been two occasions, however, where I could not finish the work on Saturday, and in order to deliver on Monday as I was contracted to do, I had to work on Sunday as well. Is this OK, or would it have been better to be late, and not work on Sunday? This would harm my client, as he'd get the finished code later, and would have less time to modify/deploy it, and it would also harm my reputation as a guy who gets things done.

What should I do when these cases arrive?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1361793' date='Aug 18 2007, 08:43 AM']I have a related question. I'm a software developer, and tend to work only on the weekdays with my primary job. I occasionally have to quickly put out a metaphorical fire on Saturdays, but not often.

I do, however, accept contract work on the side. I do work some nights and Saturdays. There have been two occasions, however, where I could not finish the work on Saturday, and in order to deliver on Monday as I was contracted to do, I had to work on Sunday as well. Is this OK, or would it have been better to be late, and not work on Sunday? This would harm my client, as he'd get the finished code later, and would have less time to modify/deploy it, and it would also harm my reputation as a guy who gets things done.

What should I do when these cases arrive?[/quote]

That's probably a just cause for working on a Sunday. And, moreover, computer programming isn't servile labor (i.e. it does not require a large amount of physical body exertion) and would probably fall under the category of leisure which reading, writing and studying fall under and therefore wouldn't be forbidden on a Sunday but would be commendable not to do if it would help to observe the Lord's Day better.

[Paddington]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1362371' date='Aug 19 2007, 01:02 AM']And, moreover, computer programming isn't servile labor (i.e. it does not require a large amount of physical body exertion) and would probably fall under the category of leisure[/quote]

Oh no! Do I know something about Catholicism that STM doesn't? I thought servile labor was when you got paid.

Moving a piano for free is not servile labor.

Sleeping at the front desk for pay is servile labor.

Maybe I'm wrong tho.

[Paddington]

BTW, I'm not suggesting that meeting a deadline for your client's well-being isn't a darn good reason to do some work on Sunday.

[Norseman82]

My rule of thumb is "Does this have to be done today or can this be done on another day?".

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1362371' date='Aug 18 2007, 10:32 PM']And, moreover, computer programming isn't servile labor (i.e. it does not require a large amount of physical body exertion) and would probably fall under the category of leisure which reading, writing and studying fall under[/quote]

My friend, I am a computer programmer who right now is about to spend at least an hour filing my unfiled work emails. Although it would fall under the scope of "mental work", please be aware that people in IT - and other desk jobs - are subject to ergonomic strains, whether it be repetitive motion, carpal tunnel, and neck and eye strain, which is why even we get reminders on workplace safety, so it is not as leisurely as it may seem (especially when you are juggling several projects while trying to meet deadlines with the added weight of HIPAA and Sarbannes-Oxley compliance). These days, mental work can be just as stressful - if not more stressful - as physical work. In fact, I brought this subject up in confession once and was told that if you are sitting around a desk all week, physical work in the yard might just be what the doctor orders....

Edited August 19, 2007 by Norseman82

[adt6247]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1362856' date='Aug 19 2007, 01:26 PM']My friend, I am a computer programmer who right now is about to spend at least an hour filing my unfiled work emails. Although it would fall under the scope of "mental work", please be aware that people in IT - and other desk jobs - are subject to ergonomic strains, whether it be repetitive motion, carpal tunnel, and neck and eye strain, which is why even we get reminders on workplace safety, so it is not as leisurely as it may seem (especially when you are juggling several projects while trying to meet deadlines with the added weight of HIPAA and Sarbannes-Oxley compliance). These days, mental work can be just as stressful - if not more stressful - as physical work. In fact, I brought this subject up in confession once and was told that if you are sitting around a desk all week, physical work in the yard might just be what the doctor orders....[/quote]
Agreed -- I'm more exhausted from a day of hard programming than a day of hard physical labor. If it's physical, my mind still functions at the end. At the end of a grueling stressful mentally taxing workday, my mind is mush, and as my body follows my mind, it acts accordingly.

BTW: SOX = evil! I don't do the compliance myself, but there's SO many times I want to implement a feature, and it's turned down by the accursed accountants because it would cause complications with SOX compliance. I never even understand why. I really want to go back to working for a small company...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1362846' date='Aug 19 2007, 12:12 PM']Oh no! Do I know something about Catholicism that STM doesn't? I thought servile labor was when you got paid.

Moving a piano for free is not servile labor.

Sleeping at the front desk for pay is servile labor.

Maybe I'm wrong tho.[/quote]

Well here's what the Baltimore Catechism No. 4 says:

[quote name='Baltimore Catechism No. 4']358. Q. What is forbidden by the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment forbids all unnecessary servile work and whatever else may hinder the due observance of the Lord's day.
359. Q. What are servile works?

A. Servile works are those which require labor rather of body than of mind.

"Servile" -- that is, work which was formerly done by the slaves. Therefore writing, reading, studying, etc., are not servile, because they were not the works of slaves.
360. Q. Are servile works on Sunday ever lawful?

A. Servile works are lawful on Sunday when the honor of God, the good of our neighbor, or necessity requires them.

"Honor of God"; for example, erecting an altar that could not be erected at another time, so that the people may hear Mass on that day.

"Good of our neighbor" -- such as reconstructing a broken bridge that must be used every day; or clearing away obstacles after a railroad accident, that trains may not be delayed. "Necessity" -- firemen endeavoring to extinguish a fire, sailors working on a ship at sea, etc.
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bcomm03.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/mast...ore/bcomm03.htm[/url][/quote]