Political Hell

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1469122' date='Feb 26 2008, 06:59 AM']What has Arinze and the other cardinals say about voting Todd? What does the Church say about voting for 100% prochoice candidates?[/quote]
He has said nothing about party primaries or caucauses, which are not votes for office.

hot stuff is it is a sin for a Catholic to be a registered Democrat?

[rkwright]

Apo... thats the whole point... he didn't say voting for office, or voting in primaries, or voting for a senator, or voting for city council....

He said voting.

I don't like the idea that we can put words in his mouth, saying he meant 'voting for national office'.

[fides quarens intellectum]

wondering what Dismas thinks of the last few pages of discussion...

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1469761' date='Feb 27 2008, 06:07 AM']He has said nothing about party primaries or caucauses, which are not votes for office.

hot stuff is it is a sin for a Catholic to be a registered Democrat?[/quote]

Really,

And the Church has said nothing about supporting evil for an eventual good?


Its not a sin to be a democrat. But I'm wondering about being obtuse.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1470271' date='Feb 27 2008, 06:35 PM']And the Church has said nothing about supporting evil for an eventual good?
Its not a sin to be a democrat. But I'm wondering about being obtuse.[/quote]
Clearly, a Catholic can legitimately vote in the Democratic party primary in order to influence the nomination process and lessen any possible evil outcome in the general election in the fall, and -- of course -- this is merely an extension of the principle enunciated by Pope John Paul II in his encyclical letter [i]Evangelium Vitae[/i], where he spoke of limiting the harm done to society by political acts contrary to the objective moral law.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1469831' date='Feb 27 2008, 07:24 AM']Apo... thats the whole point... he didn't say voting for office, or voting in primaries, or voting for a senator, or voting for city council....

He said voting.

I don't like the idea that we can put words in his mouth, saying he meant 'voting for national office'.[/quote]
I am not putting words in the good Cardinal's mouth; instead, I am simply pointing out that the Cardinal is ignorant as far as the nature of the American political system is concerned.

God bless,
Todd

Edited February 28, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Alycin]

my gramps voted for hil clint because he thinks if she wins the dem nom then mccain will win for sure in the gen elect.

eta: typing with one hand.

Edited February 28, 2008 by Alycin

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1470422' date='Feb 27 2008, 11:15 PM']Clearly, a Catholic can legitimately vote in the Democratic party primary in order to influence the nomination process and lessen any possible evil outcome in the general election in the fall, and -- of course -- this is merely an extension of the principle enunciated by Pope John Paul II in his encyclical letter [i]Evangelium Vitae[/i], where he spoke of limiting the harm done to society by political acts contrary to the objective moral law.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]


Oh you must mean this part of Evangelium Vitae

[quote]In order to shed light on this difficult question, it is necessary to recall the general principles concerning cooperation in evil actions. Christians, like all people of good will, are called upon under grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God's law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it. This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it. Each individual in fact has moral responsibility for the acts which he personally performs; no one can be exempted from this responsibility, and on the basis of it everyone will be judged by God himself[/quote]

Oh wait that argues my point.

Yeah I have no idea what part of Evangelium Vitae states that you can support an evil for an eventual good.

You may have to point that out to me

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1468324' date='Feb 24 2008, 08:38 PM']Prove it.[/quote]

i don't think he can prove it. it's just posturing that's typical of conservative robots.
aboriton is a number one priority, but even the catholic church teaches you have to look at the big picture. so if you don't think it's going to change, you don't have to vote prolife.

but with that said, iron's one of hte few consistent ones here, even willing to call out dismass by saying he was defiling the eucharist by partaking of it, which was a sight to see, by insisting to vote for mccain.

i've yet to see a rational arguement that says you can curse those who voted for kerry etc but that don't vote for mccain, based on the abortion issue.

Edited April 4, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[ironmonk]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1468324' date='Feb 24 2008, 10:38 PM']Prove it.[/quote]

Prove it? "Defender of the Faith" to saying "prove it" on some of the most basic Catholic 101 tenants?

Sad. Very sad. hmmm... a few names come to mind... Judas, Luther, Legion, Joseph Smith....

All reasons why someone leaves the Catholic Faith can be summed down to three categories...
1) Ignorance
2) Mad at God
3) Slave to Sin

...when this happens there are tears in Heaven and laughter in Hell. But... there is still hope - Come home to Rome.

As for your proof....

[url="http://www.caaction.com/pdf/Voters-Guide-Catholic-English-1p.pdf"]http://www.caaction.com/pdf/Voters-Guide-C...-English-1p.pdf[/url]


[b]VII. Moral Priorities for Public Life[/b]
Protecting Human Life
Promoting Family Life
Pursuing Social Justice
Practicing Global Solidarity

[quote]"We encourage all citizens, particularly Catholics, to embrace their citizenship not merely as a duty and privilege, but as an opportunity meaningfully to participate [more fully] in building the culture of life. Every voice matters in the public forum. Every vote counts. Every act of responsible citizenship is an exercise of significant individual power."6 Even those who are not citizens are called to participate in the debates which shape our common life.[/quote]

[quote]We do not wish to instruct persons on how they should vote by endorsing or opposing candidates. We hope that voters will examine the position of candidates on the full range of issues, as well as on their personal integrity, philosophy, and performance. We are convinced that a consistent ethic of life should be the moral framework from which to address issues in the political arena.[/quote]

[quote]It must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience [b]does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals[/b]. The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. [b]A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church's social doctrine does not exhaust one's responsibility towards the common good.[/b]14 Decisions about candidates and choices about public policies require clear commitment to moral principles, careful discernment and prudential judgments based on the values of our faith.[/quote]

[quote][b]As Catholics we need to share our values, raise our voices, and use our votes to shape a society that protects human life, promotes family life, pursues social justice, and practices solidarity. [/b][/quote]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenshipold/bishopStatement.html"]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenshipol...pStatement.html[/url]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.hml"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...olitica_en.html[/url]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[dairygirl4u2c]

he's still not proven it.
just like he says it's irrefutable the patristic fathers proves the papacy, yet the orthodox remain faithfully separate, and the texts themselves are not conducive to an absolute position.

it's posturing.
what's sad is i think he genuinely believes his extreme views.

[quote]It must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals. The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church's social doctrine does not exhaust one's responsibility towards the common good.14 Decisions about candidates and choices about public policies require clear commitment to moral principles, careful discernment and prudential judgments based on the values of our faith.[/quote]

"particular program" "law" does not concern voting for a pro-choice person for reasons despite them being prochoice. you don't vote for abortion laws, you don't vote for a program that promotes killing of babies.

in fact, the bolded text that said not to isolate one issue, might indicate to some that you shouldn't isolate abortion, if it's not going to change.

but with that said, it's reasonable if you think it's going to change (but it's also reasonable to think it's not, but unreasonable to think the other side is not reasonable in that view), and it's also reasonable to think the CC is just being PC not being more direct. but, they're not being very direct. priorities does not translate into blinder voting, necessarily. it's very plausible that they're just saying that nothing beats the abortion issue generally, cause nothing does.... but that don't translate into having to vote prolife candidate, necessarily.


[quote]tumbleweed.gif

wondering what Dismas thinks of the last few pages of discussion...[/quote]

Edited April 4, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Dismas]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1469088' date='Feb 26 2008, 07:36 AM']Some states don't require a voter to be registered in a particular party in order to vote in that party's primary, although these states only limit you to voting in one primary. I believe this is what Dismas did in Michigan.

Anyone who thinks the Church has infallibly commented on how a Catholic may vote in the American primary system(ugh) is being ridiculous.[/quote]
It was Wisconsin, and yes, it's a wide open primary.

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1469924' date='Feb 27 2008, 01:30 PM']

wondering what Dismas thinks of the last few pages of discussion...[/quote]
Well, as far as I see it, I'm judged as in grave sin by some. It is my opinion that they aught remove the [platform] plank [of pro-ESR, which is abortion too] out of their eye first, then I might listen to their principled stance.

In the end, did I formally cooperate with evil? Well, let's look at Evangelium Vitae, in fact a quote used to support the claim against me.
[quote name='Evangelium Vitae']Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it.[/quote]
So, let's see here. I faced a concrete situation, namely, voting in a party primary, that is not a matter of debate.

Did I participate directly in the act against innocent human life? No, nor are my accusers suggesting this.

So, did I share in the immoral intention of the person [Hillary Clinton] committing the act of evil [legalized abortion]? This is where they point their fingers, and this is where I could vindicate myself.

[i]Do I want Hillary to be nominated for the Demokratik Party instead of Barak?[/i] Yes, as Barak is more dangerous.
[i]Do I want Hillary to become president? [/i] NO! Hillary and Obama are both horrible, but only one can run against McCain.
[i]Even if it was against McCain?[/i] Meh, between those two, it's a wash. I'd third party at this point, and worry more about supporting a Republican Congress.
[i]But McCain could have a career ending stroke before the election.[/i] True... then I'd want the new guy to face the weakest possible candidate, namely Hillary or a bruised and bloodied Obama. Please note that I would support a pro-life Republican in a heartbeat.

In the end, I view the vast majority of the condemnation stems from the fact that I am not participating in the McCain lovefest.

P.S. If it were a closed primary, I would have voted for Ron Paul.

Edited April 5, 2008 by Dismas

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1493169' date='Apr 5 2008, 05:59 PM']In the end, I view the vast majority of the condemnation stems from the fact that I am not participating in the McCain lovefest.[/quote]

[Jaime]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1493169' date='Apr 5 2008, 06:59 PM']It was Wisconsin, and yes, it's a wide open primary.
Well, as far as I see it, I'm judged as in grave sin by some. It is my opinion that they aught remove the [platform] plank [of pro-ESR, which is abortion too] out of their eye first, then I might listen to their principled stance.

In the end, did I formally cooperate with evil? Well, let's look at Evangelium Vitae, in fact a quote used to support the claim against me.

So, let's see here. I faced a concrete situation, namely, voting in a party primary, that is not a matter of debate.

Did I participate directly in the act against innocent human life? No, nor are my accusers suggesting this.

So, did I share in the immoral intention of the person [Hillary Clinton] committing the act of evil [legalized abortion]? This is where they point their fingers, and this is where I could vindicate myself.

[i]Do I want Hillary to be nominated for the Demokratik Party instead of Barak?[/i] Yes, as Barak is more dangerous.
[i]Do I want Hillary to become president? [/i] NO! Hillary and Obama are both horrible, but only one can run against McCain.
[i]Even if it was against McCain?[/i] Meh, between those two, it's a wash. I'd third party at this point, and worry more about supporting a Republican Congress.
[i]But McCain could have a career ending stroke before the election.[/i] True... then I'd want the new guy to face the weakest possible candidate, namely Hillary or a bruised and bloodied Obama. Please note that I would support a pro-life Republican in a heartbeat.

In the end, I view the vast majority of the condemnation stems from the fact that I am not participating in the McCain lovefest.

P.S. If it were a closed primary, I would have voted for Ron Paul.[/quote]


No the vast majority of condemnation has nothing to do with McCain or with politics for that matter. Its pretty simple to follow.

You gave support (you voted for) a 100% prochoice candidate in hopes for a greater eventual good.

Catholics do not endorse evil actions in hope for an eventual good. How is this difficult to understand?

[Dismas]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1494100' date='Apr 7 2008, 09:02 AM']No the vast majority of condemnation has nothing to do with McCain or with politics for that matter. Its pretty simple to follow.

You gave support (you voted for) a 100% prochoice candidate in hopes for a greater eventual good.

Catholics do not endorse evil actions in hope for an eventual good. How is this difficult to understand?[/quote]
I gave support of a 100% pro-choice candidate OVER another 100% pro-choice candidate. Your pro-choice candidate had absolutely no bearing, nor any legitimate pro-life candidate in the given bracket. Given a contest that is between two candidates of equal pro-choice leanings, I was given an opportunity to push for the vulnerable one. How is this difficult to understand?