A Crisis Of Faith

[Seatbelt Blue]

(I posted this in Questions and Answers, too; mods, please delete that thread)

Hey there, guys. It's time for my semi-annual post. Long time lurker, but very rarely ever post.

Anyways.

So let's put it simply: please convince me not to convert to Judaism. I don't care what argument you employ, but please.

It's strange; when I move closer to God, when I claw my way after him, when I look towards him in hope, I can't help but again feel the strange attraction to Judaism. I hate that. I hate being set against myself, my Catholicism versus my inclination to Judaism. Not that I have lost my faith in Christ -- but that only makes it more complex, harder to resolve.

This conflict has been a part of me for almost two years, now; it's funny to think back on it, how it crept up on me so gradually, and worked its way from my primary focus to the background radiation of my daily dealing with the Almighty. I've tried to force it away, to abandon those Jewish practices I tried to adapt to my Christian life. I've tried to pretend it was over, or I'd figured it all out. I stopped thinking and praying about it, and consequently stopped thinking and praying. When my prayer went limp, it left my mind; when my prayer returns to me, so does this.

I've made a point of not talking about it with anyone. I didn't want the word to spread much further that this was still a growing problem for me. I feel the need to put on the brave face of confident Catholicism, sure in itself and assured of itself, every day in every way getting better and better. And while the moral life is chaotic, and that is no secret to my closest friends, I've kept this spiritual churning away from them lately, and so, lately, I've been closed off. I haven't been reading spiritual works, because I won't let myself read into Judaism, and the Christian works I have don't address this turmoil.

The worst part is that it's completely irrational. It's emotional, completely from the heart and not the head. If you pressed me, I could name a few reasons I have for attraction, but there are things I figured out after the fact, and they're all pretty superficial. And I'm not even really that well-educated on it, either, which is partly intentional -- I don't want this.

And yet, I can't help but be aware of the fact that Christianity simply doesn't resonate in my heart the way it used to.

I can't believe I actually just wrote that. I've been avoiding saying that for a while, passing it off as some other spiritual malaise instead of the conscious denial of where my heart seems to be going. But for some reason, Judaism attracts me profoundly, even in my ignorance. I've been trying for two years, if not longer, to reconcile that with my Catholicism which, for all I can't feel it inside me, I still believe, you know. That's what makes this so rough.

In fact, though, in recent days it's gotten harder to have a Christian faith. I'm trying, trying like hell to keep my eyes on Christ. Believe that. I pray *constantly* lately. I've said the Rosary, the Divine Mercy, and every day in front of the Sacrament. I'm doing everything I know to do. My friend Ryan keeps warning me to make sure I stay Christocentric -- and I keep telling myself to *remember* Jesus. I don't know -- its starting to seem like I'm a Christian by day and a crypto-Jew by night. I've asked the intercession of friends and saints, and yet still, the struggle continues. I honestly don't know what to make of it.

Please help.

[carrdero]

Isn't there an organization entitled Jews for Christ in which one can embrace both Judaism and Christianity?

Edited February 28, 2008 by carrdero

[Phazzan]

I was an evangelical christian and felt the "pul"l to Catholicism for two years before I converted, and then once a Catholic felt the pull to no religion and that's where I'm at today. I can't honestly ever say I felt the pull towards Judaism, lol. Moral of the story, don't trust your instincts.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

It's natural for you to feel some affinity with Judaism, as Catholicism has its roots in that faith. Last year I started taking classes in Biblical Hebrew and following short courses in various aspects of Jewish living and theology at the synagogue as a way of deepening my appreciation of my own Scriptures and my own faith. It's not just the Old Testament that starts to glow with meaning that you never knew existed when you study Judaism - your reading of the New Testament will also be enriched, as it's steeped in Jewish custom and allegory. Last summer I went to a talk called 'The Lamb of God', given by a former Orthodox Jew who had converted to Catholicism, in which he drew out the correspondence between the Passion and the Passover in fascinating detail. Even the hyssop stick on which the vinegar-soaked sponge was lifted to Jesus' parched mouth has its place in Passover imagery, which I didn't know before.

In other words: don't see Judaism as an alternative to Catholicism, but rather as a source of knowledge that can inform and enrich your Catholic faith. It sounds as though your current practice is to incorporate as many Jewish rituals and practices into your daily life as possible, which isn't necessarily the best way for you as a Catholic to benefit from Jewish knowledge - it might just encourage you to see Catholicism and Judaism as two starkly separate things, and cause you to start wondering which religious practices move you the most and whether you should just discount the others and become a Jew. As a Catholic, you are rooted in Judaism - but your branches were grown and cultivated by Christ, as you already recognise. Be sure to step back and take a look at the whole tree.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1470456' date='Feb 28 2008, 12:49 AM']Isn't there an organization entitled Jews for Christ in which one can embrace both Judaism and Christianity?[/quote]


It's called Catholicism.

Go to Catholic.com and search for Rosalind Moss. They have audio's by her that should help.

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://hebrewcatholic.org/"]http://hebrewcatholic.org/[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics[/url]

[praying4carmel]

You Might find Edith Stein Of Interest.

[Fidei Defensor]

go with it. God will lead you where he feels you belong. So if catholicism is true, catholics have nothign to worry about, right?

[Hirsap]

[quote]The worst part is that it's [b]completely irrational[/b]. It's [b]emotional, completely from the heart and not the head[/b]. If you pressed me, I could name a few reasons I have for attraction, but there are things I figured out after the fact, and they're all pretty superficial.[/quote] ---emphasis mine

One may have temptations against Faith, against the Catholic Church, but remember, when temptations that are based on feeling...it's simply a matter of not consenting. I know, I am in no position to speak of your plight, but I can state that much. It is your will that God wants. As long as your will remains fixed upon doing God's will, that is sufficient. In fact, in persevering in your situation, your faith and trust in God will be of great merit.

Excessive cocern for 'consolations' in the service of God, particularly in prayer and meditation may be a symptom here, as you do have a desire to be drawn towards spiritual fulfilement, and for some reason, you ''feel'' this to be relating to Judaism. But it is the will that counts.

[Catholic777]

It sounds like the devil is very much tempting you.

Modern Judaism is, typologically, the exact opposite of Christianity. This is elaborated in all the traditional Saints and Church fathers...going back to St. Paul. But the hierarchy today tries to downplay it in the spirit of cozying up to the Jews. Now, we needed some balance. Too often the typological understanding of Jewishness as a continuing phenomenon was confused with hatred of the individual Jews. But still, remember, Judaism is the living symbol on earth today of the rejection of Christ. The pagans and other Gentile nations may be ignorant of Christ, but typologically they are considered to merely be potential Christians...if only the Gospel is proclaimed to them ("if you're not against me, you're for me"). But the remaining Jews (again, as a symbolic nation, not necessarily individually) have already rejected Christ, and so their conversion will not come until the end of time. Typologically at least (and again, let's not confuse this with individuals as there are good jews and bad christians)...the Jewish principle in history (ie, rejection of Christ as God) is opposed everywhere and in all things to the Christian principle (ie, acceptance of Jesus Christ). Ecclesia is set against Synagoga until armageddon. Therefore, temptation towards Judaism is most specifically a temptation towards rejecting Christ, typologically speaking. A temptation towards paganism may be merely a temptation TOWARDS something else, some other idol...but a temptation towards Judaism is always a temptation AWAY FROM Christ specifically as one cannot be a Jew today without being defined in terms of Christ. Hard as they try...the defining moment for the Jews came in 33 AD. Some of them became Christians, some of them rejected Him. This split has defined each ever since. As much as they try to claim that Christianity was the "split off" and that they are simply the continuation of old testament Judaism...the reality is that the split is equal. Neither split "off from" the other...they split apart equally into Christ Accepting and Christ Rejecting. And those that rejected Christ had their temple destroyed and were dispersed throughout the earth. I'm not saying Jews today are personally guilty of anything, but in a way analogous to Original Sin...the ancestors of today's Jews lost for their descendents their former special status with God because they rejected Christ. But, also like with Original Sin...this can be remedied through Baptism which can once again make them part of the People of God.


The "Hebrew Catholic" phenomenon is not simply something anyone should join. It is for ethnic Jews, former Jews...who embrace the Messiah and His Church but retain their attachment to semitic culture (as is valid). One cannot become a Hebrew Catholic who is not Hebrew. You can't change ethnicity or cultural affiliation like that, especially not if you are already Christian. Perhaps if you were pagan and then converted to Judaism before, finally, being baptized you would find a place with the Hebrew Catholics. But without first apostasizing, you cannot become a Jew. If you are interested in their unique heritage, you can be friends with such groups and assist them...but you yourself cannot become a Jew while remaining Catholic any more than I, as a white male, can ever become a "Black Catholic". That would be overstepping the legitimate purposes of the "Hebrew Catholic" movement which is to accomodate Hebrews (former Jews, "ethnic Jews") who become Catholic. But while remaining within the Church, there is no way to switch over to Jewish status. Though in the Apostolic age some Hebrews born under the Law (like Timothy) yet who had never been circumcized were circumcized and THEN became Christians. But the practice of the Church ultimately decided against, for good reason, having Christians first become Jews before being baptized.

We are all born pagan. In our lives we then [i]become[/i] either Jew or Christian, at least typologically speaking. Either a Rejector of Christ or an Acceptor. Though there can be conversion from Rejection to Acceptance, and apostasy from Acceptance to Rejection...one need not and should not, the Church decided, become a Jew before becoming Christian. It does not make symbolic sense. One need not Reject Christ first to then Accept Him.

And certainly it is not possible to switch over to Jewish status while remaining in the bosom of the Church. If it's a part of you, it is of necessity something that comes from before your baptism. A culture or an ethnicity or a former religion. Your Rite you can, once in your life, change for grave reasons. But Hebrew Catholic status is more strict than that even. If you want a more middle eastern liturgy or spirituality...there are plenty of good Rites you could change to (just pick carefully). But you can't stay a Catholic and yet become a Jew if you never were, actually, a Jew beforehand. That would be very post-modern indeed!

Edited February 29, 2008 by Catholic777

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Judaism cannot be treated as a 'living symbol of the rejection of Christ', as that perception is connected to the false and anti-Judaic belief that every Jew is guilty of deicide by virtue of their birth and bloodline. The old dangerous mantra was, "The Jews killed Christ."

No. We all killed Christ. We have all sinned. We have all betrayed him. Drawing an artificial distinction between Gentiles (potential Christians) and Jews (God-killers) is definitely anti-Judaic and in some cases it verges on the anti-Semitic. The persecutions and pogroms that are such a black stain on Europe's history were powered by that mentality - a mentality that had nothing to do with hatred of individual [i]Jews[/i], oh dear me no, but the treatment of Judaism as a [i]symbol[/i]. And for the sake of that pleasantly abstract hatred, Jews in Europe have undergone horrendous bouts of persecution over the course of the centuries. The Church's attempts to redress this aren't the product of a desire to 'cozy up to the Jews' (quite a derogatory turn of phrase) but of a realisation that historical wrongs need to be put right, and who better to put them right than the church which is home to the sacraments, living channels of grace?

[Catholic777]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1471310' date='Feb 29 2008, 01:38 PM']Judaism cannot be treated as a 'living symbol of the rejection of Christ', as that perception is connected to the false and anti-Judaic belief that every Jew is guilty of deicide by virtue of their birth and bloodline. The old dangerous mantra was, "The Jews killed Christ."[/quote]

Guilt-by-association is a dangerous logical fallacy. "Connected to" that belief doesnt mean it is that belief or necessarily implies it. The Jews are no more guilty of deicide, personally, than we are personally guilty of Adam's sin. Doesn't mean there aren't consequences for us. Adam's sin lost grace for his descendents, the Jews' rejection in the time of Christ lost their status. Both can be remedied by baptism.

You cannot deny this rich symbolism without denying the writings of so many Saints and Church Fathers all the way back to the Epistles of St. Paul. The rejection of the Jews allowed the gentiles to be "grafted on" as it were. It's providentially arranged. And is typologically signified all the way from Cain killing Able (but woe to anyone who lays a hand on cain), to Esau giving up his birthright to Jacob, right down to the Parables of the Wedding Feast and the Vineyard whose meaning is so obvious that it is ridiculous to watch the neocons try to interpret it differently:

[quote]Matthew 21:33 Hear ye another parable. There was a man an householder, who planted a vineyard, and made a hedge round about it, and dug in it a press, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen; and went into a strange country. 34 And when the time of the fruits drew nigh, he sent his servants to the husbandmen that they might receive the fruits thereof. 35 And the husbandmen laying hands on his servants, beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again he sent other servants more than the former; and they did to them in like manner. 37 And last of all he sent to them his son, saying: They will reverence my son. 38 But the husbandmen seeing the son, said among themselves: This is the heir: come, let us kill him, and we shall have his inheritance. 39 And taking him, they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do to those husbandmen?

41 They say to him: He will bring those evil men to an evil end; and will let out his vineyard to other husbandmen, that shall render him the fruit in due season. 42 Jesus saith to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes. 43 Therefore I say to you, that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone, shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it shall grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they knew that he spoke of them.[/quote]

If the husbandmen killing the lord's Son and so being replaced by other husbandmen ISNT the Jews rejecting Christ and so the covenant being given (at least until the End) to the Gentiles...you must be tripping. Because that is the interpretation explicitly given by Christ, "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof". And the Jews knew that he spoke of them. Israel used to be God's Kingdom on Earth, the nation set aside. Now the Church is and the Jews wander as a dispossesed nation.

This should not be taken to imply anything more about the Jews as individuals than saying that the Church is holy implies that all Christians are holy, as they clearly arent. It is a modern tendency to conflate the individual and the group identity like this...and leads to a denial of the synagogue of Satan and likewise a denial that the Church is holy.

[quote]No. We all killed Christ. We have all sinned. We have all betrayed him.[/quote]

In reality, yes. However, in the order of typology, the Jews on calvary SYMBOLIZE all sinners. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water. While reminding us that the Jews "merely" [i]symbolize[/i] all sinners, you forget that they do, in fact, [u]symbolize all sinners[/u]. And as such are a symbolic people, scripturally speaking, and the symbolism isnt a positive one.

[quote]Drawing an artificial distinction between Gentiles (potential Christians) and Jews (God-killers) is definitely anti-Judaic and in some cases it verges on the anti-Semitic.[/quote]

But the symbolism simply exists going back to the Gospels and St. Paul, through the Church Fathers and down all the way through the tradition of the Church until it mysteriously disappears without a trace after Vatican II. It's not Jews but "the" Jews. That is to say...Jewishness, the Jewish typological principle, the nation abstracted from the individuals.

Christians arent necessarily holy personally, and Jews aren't necessarily bad personally...and anyone who doesnt see this is thick. We shouldnt let it destroy the poetry of the symbolism. The pagans, as individuals, aren't necessarily ignorant of the Gospel and may have already individually rejected it...but in the order of typology, of mystagogical symbolism...as a Nation they are merely ignorant and considered potential Christians, whereas the Jewish nation heard the message and definitively rejected it and as such are not the subject, as a group, of our proselytism as we know they won't convert, as a group, until the end of time...individuals obviously notwithstanding.

[quote]The persecutions and pogroms that are such a black stain on Europe's history were powered by that mentality - a mentality that had nothing to do with hatred of individual [i]Jews[/i], oh dear me no, but the treatment of Judaism as a [i]symbol[/i].[/quote]

It's simply not true. With a few notable exceptions, the pogroms and expulsions and such were almost always politically motivated. Religion was just used as a cover by evil secular rulers, and the Church always condemned it. Most Christians in the middle ages knew their local jews fairly well and, as individuals, were quite friendly and sociable with them. Even priests and popes.

A strict visible distinction and seperation was maintained, indeed, firstly because the Jews liked it that way to preserve their own culture, and secondly on the part of the Christians to maintain the religious homogeneity of what was, after all, Christendom (because you cannot thoroughly mix the two, as if Christian society can be indifferent to whether one accepts or rejects Christ).

[quote]And for the sake of that pleasantly abstract hatred, Jews in Europe have undergone horrendous bouts of persecution over the course of the centuries. The Church's attempts to redress this aren't the product of a desire to 'cozy up to the Jews' (quite a derogatory turn of phrase) but of a realisation that historical wrongs need to be put right, and who better to put them right than the church which is home to the sacraments, living channels of grace?[/quote]

This attitude is inherently hypocritical, though, don't you see that?!?

For some reason "the Church" can be taken as an abstract entity and so can still be blamed and apologize for wrongs that happened 700 years ago even though no one alive today was part of that...but "the Jews" as an abstract entity can't be attributed any even symbolic connection to wrongs that happened 2000 years ago??!? Does that make any sense?!?

Why the double standard? If Catholics alive today can be identified with their communal past and expected to corporately apologize for and "make right" the wrongs of 900 years ago...then the Jews alive today can be expected to corporately apologize for their ancestors' role in the Crucifixion!

In reality...both of those situations are absurd. The consequences from what happened exist, but no one needs to apologize or redress the events of the distant past anymore than we need to confess original sin personally. It's something collective and communal in it's consequences and symbolism, and has nothing to do with individuals qua individuals.

Religiously based persecution of Jews actually spiked when protestantism came about, just like "witch trials" which had been rare or even forbidden in medieval times started to appear at the dawn of the modern age. It was mainly based on political turmoil and tension, such as in the time of the Black Plague, or on greed...such as Crusaders wanting to loot or kings wanting to cancel their debts to Jewish lenders and so banishing them. And Catholic religiously guised persecution of Jews ended long before protestant. And Moslem persecution has been constantly the most virulent.

At the time of Vatican II, there hadn't been significant Catholic-guised persecution of Jews for centuries, and yet the symbolism had been maintained up until that point without further issue. Furthermore, the greatest persecution of all...the Shoah...was not religiously guised at all.

Clearly, the scriptural symbolism regarding the Jews, and persecution of the Jews...are very loosely connected at best, and I see no reason to draw a causative link. It can't be causative because there were long stretches of time where the symbolism existed without problem for the Jews, and there were many persecutions of the Jews (as by Moslems and Nazis) that were clearly not based on anything Christian, symbolic or otherwise. It was clearly not Christianity and its teachings on the Jews that were causing all this as their narrative of victimhood would have you believe (as part of a decidedly unchristian agenda). The symbolism was used to guise persecution sometimes, but there was almost always other turmoil, political tension, Black Death, greed etc...that was the real motive.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Catholic777

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

The closer I get to God the more I love Judaism.

I think all this craziness has more to do with your belief that your attraction to it is somehow evil or irrational or somehow wrong. I think if you just let it be, found catholic to talk about it with, and allowed yourself to learn more about judaism it would probably go over better. I don't know if the principle of denial is causing this sort of thing to be a monster out of proportions?

[Catholic777]

[quote]The closer I get to God the more I love Judaism.[/quote]

If by "love of Judaism" you mean love of Old Testament Judaism, Hebrew culture, or Jews personally as individuals...that's very good.

If, however, you mean love of that religion which, relative to Christianity, is defined specifically by its rejection of Christ...this attitude is very dangerous indeed.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Catholic777

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Catholic777' post='1472335' date='Mar 2 2008, 07:05 PM']If by "love of Judaism" you mean love of Old Testament Judaism, Hebrew culture, or Jews personally as individuals...that's very good.

If, however, you mean love of that religion which, relative to Christianity, is defined specifically by its rejection of Christ...this attitude is very dangerous indeed.[/quote]

Judaism isn't defined by its rejection of Christ. The Jews do not believe that the Christ has come yet. They didn't look at Jesus and say, "Yes, this is the moshiach, but we are going to wilfully ignore him and pretend that he never arrived." Some Jews don't even believe in a specific messiah, but in a messianic age. This is why I dislike it when people try to transform the worldwide community of Jewish believers into a symbol that can be incorporated easily and conveniently into Christianity, because it often means redefining Jewish theology to suit our own purposes and claiming that Jews believe things that they don't.

[quote]With a few notable exceptions, the pogroms and expulsions and such were almost always politically motivated. Religion was just used as a cover by evil secular rulers, and the Church always condemned it. Most Christians in the middle ages knew their local jews fairly well and, as individuals, were quite friendly and sociable with them. Even priests and popes.

A strict visible distinction and seperation was maintained, indeed, firstly because the Jews liked it that way to preserve their own culture, and secondly on the part of the Christians to maintain the religious homogeneity of what was, after all, Christendom (because you cannot thoroughly mix the two, as if Christian society can be indifferent to whether one accepts or rejects Christ).[/quote]

Have you never heard of the blood libel? The widespread belief that Jews kidnapped and ritually murdered Christian children every Passover in order to include Christian blood in their Passover matzah? The belief that was used to fan the flames of numerous pogroms? That belief wasn't confined to just a few people. It was taken as fact by European Christians. [i]Fact[/i]. When the Second World War began, the same old myth was resuscitated in Eastern Europe, particularly in Hungary and Poland, as the Nazis knew that they could rely on the region's old prejudices to assist them in genocide. If you read the testimonies of Eastern European Holocaust survivors, the blood libel and poisonous myths like it resurface again and again. These weren't muttered in villages by uneducated peasants, but bandied about in drawing rooms by highly erudite Catholic doctors (see Eva Hoffman's [i]Lost in Translation[/i]) and preached from the pulpits of various Christian churches (see Bela Zsolt's [i]Nine Suitcases[/i]).

[quote]This attitude is inherently hypocritical, though, don't you see that?!?

For some reason "the Church" can be taken as an abstract entity and so can still be blamed and apologize for wrongs that happened 700 years ago even though no one alive today was part of that...but "the Jews" as an abstract entity can't be attributed any even symbolic connection to wrongs that happened 2000 years ago??!? Does that make any sense?!?

Why the double standard? If Catholics alive today can be identified with their communal past and expected to corporately apologize for and "make right" the wrongs of 900 years ago...then the Jews alive today can be expected to corporately apologize for their ancestors' role in the Crucifixion![/quote]

I never said that the Church is guilty of the heinous anti-Judaic and anti-Semitic crimes committed by Catholics in the past. I [i]did[/i] say that the Church is in a unique position to clean up old wounds and stitch up the scars, not because we bear personal culpability for what happened before we were even born, but because we have been blessed with the sacraments - particularly the Eucharist. We have Jesus among us, now, working to heal. If we can't become doctors, who can? You don't have to be personally responsible for a situation in order to be able to redress it.

[quote]Religiously based persecution of Jews actually spiked when protestantism came about, just like "witch trials" which had been rare or even forbidden in medieval times started to appear at the dawn of the modern age. It was mainly based on political turmoil and tension, such as in the time of the Black Plague, or on greed...such as Crusaders wanting to loot or kings wanting to cancel their debts to Jewish lenders and so banishing them. And Catholic religiously guised persecution of Jews ended long before protestant. And Moslem persecution has been constantly the most virulent.[/quote]

As for what you say about Jews 'liking' to keep themselves to themselves, were you aware that they were put in ghettos and forbidden by law to work in most professions? It's hard to see how local Christians were 'friendly and sociable' when their Jewish neighbours were kept in a separate part of the city and were usually locked in at night. Practically the only career left open to Jews was money-lending, which is how the stereotype of the greedy usurious Jew came about. They were forbidden to mix socially with Christians. And distinctive clothing did not begin with the Nazis and their yellow stars - Jews were being made to wear special yellow badges in the shape of two tablets to mark themselves out as Jews in medieval England. That law was introduced in the 1200s. Catholic England. Protestantism hadn't even appeared on the horizon then, so it just isn't possible to claim that the only people to persecute Jews were secular governments (which I wasn't aware existed in the Middle Ages) and Protestants. Jews were also expelled from England entirely when the country was still under Catholic rule, in the year 1290. The Jewish exile from England lasted three hundred and fifty years. Persecution reached a fever pitch before then, with unfair taxation, land confiscation, restricted movement, and more accusations of blood libel and conspiracies to murder Christians. When the first blood libel charge was made (1147) Pope Innocent VI protested in defence of the Jewish accused. When the expulsion happened, English clergy spoke out to approve of the arrangement. Prior to that expulsion, there was an incident where hundreds of Jews were locked up in York Castle and given a choice between being killed and converting to Catholicism. Their reaction was to commit suicide, in an echo of Masada.

You mention that greed and fear of the Black Death were prime motivators of the persecutions, not religion. But people believed that Jews were carriers of the plague because they were taught that Jews (unlike Christians) were dirty. Jews were forced into the practice of usury because this was considered a sinful occupation for Christians to take part in, so the accusations of greed and the desire to steal arose from the belief that this behaviour was somehow justified by the Jews' 'sinful' work. And as for your claim that the persecution of Jews has always been worst under Muslim regimes, that is frankly untrue. Until the advent of Zionism, Muslim countries had a much better track record where Judaism was concerned than Europe had. There used to be thriving diaspora communities in Yemen and Mesopotamia (now Iraq) in particular.

Your whole post seems to go on these lines: Protestants persecuted Jews, but Catholics never did. Muslims persecuted Jews, but Catholics never did. Secular governments disguised as Catholic governments persecuted Jews, but Catholics never did. Does this mean that you are going to attribute all the good achievements of those societies to secretly secular governments? Or do they suddenly turn Catholic when we start to discuss the positive contributions that they made?

Once again, I am not saying that the Catholic Church is in any way responsible for the scourge of European anti-Semitism, which is still able to make itself felt in Eastern Europe especially. I [i]am[/i] saying that significant numbers of both laity and clergy treated anti-Semitism as a religious principle - in some cases, as a religious obligation.

To talk about poetic symbolism in the face of such history is worrying. I read your point about the Jews symbolising all sinners with interest, but then I reached the conclusion that such an interpretation is made redundant by the Mass anyway. When I attend Mass I am able to stand at the foot of the cross as a sinner in search of mercy, so why do I need a Jewish person who lived two thousand years ago to understudy for me? I am there myself.