dominicansoul Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 wow. I don't see Lincoln as a mass-murderer...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1661831' date='Sep 23 2008, 12:38 PM']wow. I don't see Lincoln as a mass-murderer...?[/quote] Really? Have you studied the War between the States at all? You are upset for Bush for starting the Iraq war but okay with the demand for unconditional surrender of the South? Do you know what the Union armies did in the South, the rape and murder of civilians, the pilliaging of the countryside? You realize that more men died at Shiloh than in the entire Iraq war, on both sides. No, if leaders are responsible for the actions of their military, then he is a murderer without a doubt. It is not even as if you could say that this was sithout his knowledge, he approved of Sheridian's and Sherman's actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 The Civil War was necessary. The Iraq war is not. Is Bush responsible for soldiers who act on their own and have committed atrocities towards civilians in Iraq? I don't think so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1661846' date='Sep 23 2008, 12:58 PM']The Civil War was necessary. The Iraq war is not. Is Bush responsible for soldiers who act on their own and have committed atrocities towards civilians in Iraq? I don't think so...[/quote] It was? Why was it necessary? Did Georgia attack New York? What exactly made it necessary? I am not talking about soldiers acting on their own; I am talking about the intentional and ordered use of terror and scorched earth tactics agianst millions of civilians by the US military. I am talking about the 19th century equivelent of an A-bomb agianst a civilian population of an state, who was fighting a defensive war agianst invaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirisutodo333 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='Terra Pax' post='1661305' date='Sep 22 2008, 08:20 PM']I agree. Just because a candidate is pro-life does not give them a free pass. I will not vote for McCain/Palin either. Nor will I vote for Obama. [b]But it sickens me when Catholics decide that just because a candidate is pro-life, they are automatically what the country needs.[/b] Not necessarily true. Being pro-life is an absolute necessity for a politician, but that doesn't mean they ought to be elected. And I don't think the "well, the other guy is pro-choice" is a good argument. Find someone different to vote for, someone who is actually fit to serve.[/quote] Ah...I was wondering where that missing brain cell was for the Catholics that vote Obama. And there it is. According to them, McCain/Palin being "pro-life" does not trump all other "important" issues that the Obamessiah will cure. It sickens you? Maybe you should consult the American Bishops to see what they say about your statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirisutodo333 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1660956' date='Sep 22 2008, 10:38 AM']Well, I [u][b]"claim to be Catholic"[/b][/u] - I'm at Mass every Sunday - and yet I won't vote for McCain / Palin. That they may be "pro-life" - and in McCain's case, I'm not convinced - doesn't give them an automatic pass on all the other issues on which they're terrible: the "war on terror," torture, the erosion of civil liberties, and the smoking shell that is the US economy as a result of policies which McCain / Palin would continue. Note: that doesn't mean I'll vote for Obama nor am I advocating for him. But the Bush administration has been a trainwreck, and McCain / Palin offer only more of the same. Their "pro-life" stance doesn't whitewash the fact that they'd be a disaster in every other way.[/quote] Ding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1661866' date='Sep 23 2008, 01:38 PM']Ding![/quote] So glad that you can read hearts and minds, nay, look into my very soul to discern that I am not *really* Catholic because I don't support McCain / Palin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1661815' date='Sep 23 2008, 12:16 PM']The smoking shell that is the US economy? Well first the president has very little to do with economic anything accept regarding the facat that he appoints the head of the Fed, congress has a lot more to do with that, but what exactly so horrid about the US economy? We had 3.3 % growth in the second quarter, hardly economic collapse. We aren't even in a recession? we have not nad negative growth but one quarter in 6 years, and no negative growth in 2008? So why exactly is the economy a "smoking shell"?[/quote] Have you been following the news? The US taxpayer is going to be on the hook for [i]another[/i] $700B in a desperate bid to salvage the economy. In the meantime, unemployment was up last month, the stock market is in free fall and oil was up $16 / barrel yesterday. The smoke and mirrors that has been the basis of the US economy for the past eight years, to wit, the seemingly ever increasing value of houses, has been proved to be the charade that it is, and the economy is imploding as both individuals and businesses realize, "hey, my investments aren't actually worth anything." [quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1661865' date='Sep 23 2008, 01:35 PM']Ah...I was wondering where that missing brain cell was for the Catholics that vote Obama. And there it is. According to them, McCain/Palin being "pro-life" does not trump all other "important" issues that the Obamessiah will cure. It sickens you? Maybe you should consult the American Bishops to see what they say about your statement.[/quote] Again, not buying the "pro-life" story that McCain / Palin are selling *does not* translate ipso facto into support for Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Why would an ex-Catholic, who is now a Fundalmentalist, unite the Catholics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1661922' date='Sep 23 2008, 03:29 PM']Have you been following the news? The US taxpayer is going to be on the hook for [i]another[/i] $700B in a desperate bid to salvage the economy. In the meantime, unemployment was up last month, the stock market is in free fall and oil was up $16 / barrel yesterday. The smoke and mirrors that has been the basis of the US economy for the past eight years, to wit, the seemingly ever increasing value of houses, has been proved to be the charade that it is, and the economy is imploding as both individuals and businesses realize, "hey, my investments aren't actually worth anything."[/quote] Well to be honest, having had no power for over 12 days has made following the news difficult, our one paper has a limited reading value. Still the fall of AGI and LB has hardly reduced the 10 trillion dollar a year economy of the US to a smoking shell. That is more than overly dramatic, its absurd. Now how exactly is anyone at fault for the massive overvaluation of housoing in most of the country anyones fault except the people who buy and sell those houses. In Houston one can buy a perfectly livable 800 to 1000 sq house for 60 to 70 thousand dollars, a 250 thousand dollar house is a veritable mansion, 4000 sq plus and this was before the housing correction. But in many parts of the nation that won't buy you a shack, how exactly is that the federal governments fault, much less the Priesident's. Last I checked no one MADE you pay any price for a house, houses sell for what the market will bear, and the market was lifted by individual greed for decades, NOT for the last 8 years. Greenspan, if indeed he is at fault, was not appointed by Bush, but of course no one was complaining during the 16 or so years of prosperity he presided over. Oil rose agian because commodities are seen as a safe haven in an unstable market, but they would never be seen as that if people really believed the economy was a "smoking shell" because oil demand would not be stable in such a economy. That said, if the entire stock market system collapsed I would do handstands, the stock company has had way to much power for more than 400 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 dominicansoul I will probably not be able to respond to you until sometime tomorrow, I still have no power at home, but I will be waiting anxiously to see why Lincoln's actions were excusable and why the invasion of the South was necessary but the invasion of Iraq was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terra Pax Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1661865' date='Sep 23 2008, 01:35 PM']Ah...I was wondering where that missing brain cell was for the Catholics that vote Obama. And there it is. According to them, McCain/Palin being "pro-life" does not trump all other "important" issues that the Obamessiah will cure. It sickens you? Maybe you should consult the American Bishops to see what they say about your statement.[/quote] Did you even read what I said? Honestly. I said i will not be voting for either of them. I could NEVER vote for Obama. But I can not, in good conscience, vote for McCain either. His pro-life stance isn't enough, he is horrible everywhere else. I will either vote for a third party candidate that is pro-life and has better policies than McCain, or I will not vote at all. The Bishops do say that abortion is the number one issue, and I agree. But just because someone is pro-life does not make them the best candidate, not by a long shot. What the Bishops do say is that whatever candidate you vote for MUST be pro-life, not that you must vote for whoever is pro-life. Do you understand the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirisutodo333 Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 [quote name='Terra Pax' post='1662025' date='Sep 23 2008, 07:30 PM']Did you even read what I said? Honestly. I said i will not be voting for either of them. I could NEVER vote for Obama. But I can not, in good conscience, vote for McCain either. His pro-life stance isn't enough, he is horrible everywhere else. I will either vote for a third party candidate that is pro-life and has better policies than McCain, or I will not vote at all. The Bishops do say that abortion is the number one issue, and I agree. But just because someone is pro-life does not make them the best candidate, not by a long shot. What the Bishops do say is that whatever candidate you vote for MUST be pro-life, not that you must vote for whoever is pro-life. Do you understand the difference?[/quote] I don't recall this being an attack on you. I'm just using your wonderful statement to make a point. And I'm talking about McCain/Palin, not a general or theoretical pro-life politician. Do you understand the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terra Pax Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 [quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1662254' date='Sep 23 2008, 10:31 PM']I don't recall this being an attack on you. I'm just using your wonderful statement to make a point. And I'm talking about McCain/Palin, not a general or theoretical pro-life politician. Do you understand the difference?[/quote] How exactly was I not supposed to take that as a personal attack? You used my quoted post to launch an attack on anyone who doesn't vote for McCain simply because he is "pro-life" and then equated my statement with condoning voting for Obama. Nothing I have said is against any Church teaching. I am not voting for a pro-abortion politician. I am simply saying that I will not be voting for McCain JUST BECAUSE he is pro-life. I will vote for an all around better person, if I can find them, who is pro-life AND a good candidate, or else I will not vote. I can not, in good conscience, vote for a man who claims to be against abortion, but has no grasp on everything else it means to be pro-life and pro-God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1661852' date='Sep 23 2008, 12:08 PM']It was? Why was it necessary? Did Georgia attack New York? What exactly made it necessary? I am not talking about soldiers acting on their own; I am talking about the intentional and ordered use of terror and scorched earth tactics agianst millions of civilians by the US military. I am talking about the 19th century equivelent of an A-bomb agianst a civilian population of an state, who was fighting a defensive war agianst invaders.[/quote] War of Northern Aggression, indeed. Anyone who thinks it was about slavery needs to take an American history course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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