Zechariah "versus" Mary

[HisChildForever]

Right now I am looking at the first chapter of Luke (using the NAB). Both Zechariah and Mary are visited by an angel - both were "troubled" and question the angel concerning what is said - but only one gets punished for this: Zechariah. Why?

1. "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years." - Zechariah
2. "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?" - Mary

The angel replies to Zechariah: "I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news. But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time."

But the way he replies to Mary is very, very different - he simply explains to her how it will be possible for her to conceive, and uses the example of her sister to cite that God can do even what one thinks is the impossible.

Yet Zechariah and Mary had the same question - how is this possible/how can this happen? as they were thinking (a) my wife and I are both very old and (b) I am a virgin.

I sort of answered this myself but would still like some guidance. Here is what I am pondering:
1. Zechariah should know better because he was a priest and during his visitation was in the sanctuary, and Scriptures say both he and Elizabeth were "righteous in the eyes of God" and observed all His commands
(a.) Maybe Zechariah and Elizabeth had prayed all their lives - as a married couple - for a miracle to take place (for them to have a child) and when they got their miracle, Zechariah was not very receptive.
2. But then again, Mary was sinless and followed God completely during her entire (young) life, so she should also know better than to question
3. We don't know the tone of voice used. Zechariah may be bitter that he has no children and sort of scorned the angel in his reply, whereas Mary, being very young, may have sounded more curious or sincerely confused. For all we know, maybe Mary dropped to her knees out of respect, blessed herself, etc., while Zechariah did not show the same respect.
4. Mary is the picture of humility and faith, so she was probably calmed after the angel told her not to be afraid, whereas Zechariah may have remained afraid and therefore defensive.
5. We already see an outward sign of Mary's yes - her baby bump! - but maybe Zechariah being suddenly mute was a testimony that God intervened and made John possible?

Now I also have two separate questions which stem from my previous (very long) question:

1. We have Free Will. Mary could have said "no" as could Zechariah (technically speaking). Would either of them be punished if they said "no" especially since Zechariah, after showing doubt, was punished just for doubting?

2. Zechariah says his wife is "advanced in years" therefore that means she is probably in menopause, around 50? But Mary was 15 or 16, and they were sisters, so this is a [u]huge[/u] age difference. But I guess back then maybe menopause started earlier, around 30? I know our bodies have changed over time.

Okay thanks.

Edit: Added more "ponderings."

Edited November 26, 2008 by HisChildForever

[Lilllabettt]

The translation we use is shoddy.

Zechariah asks "how can this be?" as in, how can this ever happen, its ridiculous, even for God ...

Mary asks "how [i]shall[/i] this be," as in, by what method is God going to make this happen? At which point, the Angel explains. Zechariah doubted that God could make it happen at all. Hence his punishment.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[Selah]

Haha. Don't ever tick off Gabriel

[Ziggamafu]

Mary being Elizabeth's "sister" is explained by the use of the terms "sister" and "brother" in place of "cousin"; all your kinsmen - your extended family - were known in sibling terms.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1711564' date='Nov 26 2008, 03:22 PM']The translation we use is shoddy.

Zechariah asks "how can this be?" as in, how can this ever happen, its ridiculous, even for God ...

Mary asks "how [i]shall[/i] this be," as in, by what method is God going to make this happen? At which point, the Angel explains. Zechariah doubted that God could make it happen at all. Hence his punishment.[/quote]

Yep... plus, Mary's question makes a lot more sense in the context of the tradition that she was betrothed to Joseph, but had commited her virginity to God. If she intended to consummate her marriage with Joseph, why would she ask the angel how she could become pregnant? She knows where babies come from. Of course, her question is centered around how she can remain faithful to her vow of virginity to God and be the mother of the Messiah.

[thessalonian]

God knows and reads the heart and the angel I am sure was given this knowledge. Also likely tone was conveyed that we don't get. My guess is mary's tone was of wonder and awe and "I believe it but wonder how is it going to happen". Zecharias on the other hand was maybe more "ha, ya right".

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1716577' date='Dec 2 2008, 12:15 PM']Yep... plus, Mary's question makes a lot more sense in the context of the tradition that she was betrothed to Joseph, but had commited her virginity to God. If she intended to consummate her marriage with Joseph, why would she ask the angel how she could become pregnant? She knows where babies come from. Of course, her question is centered around how she can remain faithful to her vow of virginity to God and be the mother of the Messiah.[/quote]

I have never heard this before. Who says (or where is it said) that Mary commited her virginity to God even though she was getting married?

[Aloysius]

the protevangelium of James and other apocryphal gospels that we do not take as canon or as inspired, but which do contain very old traditions that didn't make it into scripture but were passed down until those works were written.

in addition to the idea that Mary was simply asking while Zachariah was pretty much saying it would be impossible, Mary's question makes sense because what was being told to her was unprecedented. God had made old people concieve before, to doubt this is to doubt Abraham and Sarah... so Zachariah is totally off base to assume it impossible when an Angel of God comes and says a miracle will be performed as miracles have been performed throughout the Torah. but what the angel said to Mary was completely unprecedented.

actually, this old tradition found in the protoevangelium of James can be inferred from the passage of scripture itself. "you WILL concieve a child" "how can this be, since I do not know man?"... is Mary stupid? does she need a lesson in the birds and the bees? no, she clearly knows that in order to concieve she will have to know man... her question, therefore, only makes sense if "I do not know man" also means "I never planned to know man", ie, that she had consecrated her virginity. "I do not know man" makes perfect sense in this context... imagine if I said "I do not steal"... I am not saying I never stole before, I'm also saying I will never steal... when she says "I do not know man" (in the Greek: ΕΠΕΙ ΑΝΔΡΑ ΟΥ ΓΙΝΩΣΚΩ translates as "I do not know man") she is pretty much saying "because I will never know man"

[HisChildForever]

I'm still a little confused (regarding Mary consecrating her virginity and still getting married). I thought marriage called for procreation. Why would Mary get married - keeping in mind that she was betrothed to Joseph before the angel came - if she knew (at the time) that there would be no procreation? Was she really married to Joseph or was he more like a guardian with the wedding ceremony a way to ensure that neither Mary or Joseph were scandalized by living together?

[Aloysius]

there is a story elaborated in the protevangelium of James (you can probably find it online) which says that she was consecrated and living at a temple, but the temple was closing or something and they had Joseph take car of her by marrying her. marriage was not, in those days, a sacrament (Christ lifted it to the status of sacrament) so their non consummated marriage wasn't a problem back then.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1716669' date='Dec 2 2008, 04:11 PM']she is pretty much saying "because I will never know man"[/quote]

And neither will any other woman! ba-doom ching

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1716707' date='Dec 2 2008, 05:49 PM']I'm still a little confused (regarding Mary consecrating her virginity and still getting married). I thought marriage called for procreation. Why would Mary get married - keeping in mind that she was betrothed to Joseph before the angel came - if she knew (at the time) that there would be no procreation? Was she really married to Joseph or was he more like a guardian with the wedding ceremony a way to ensure that neither Mary or Joseph were scandalized by living together?[/quote]

In the Jewish culture of biblical times (and probably most cultures in the world), marriage was an obligation and responsibility more than an option. Go back to the book of Ruth and you'll see how the practice of marriage centered more around providing for the woman's needs, her protection, and another generation to pass on the family name and faith. For example, a man today wouldn't let a woman walk alone down a bad street at night, and likewise a man in biblical times wouldn't let a woman live alone. Today's sense of being "in love" was in there too, but probably more like icing on the cake.

So in that context, Mary didn't have the choice of refusing marriage. That was simply a given. And, as far as consecrated celibacy goes, that was very rare due to the importance of marriage and childbearing in Judaism. Whether it's true that Mary consecrated herself to God is not a verified fact nor something we are required to believe, but it is part of oral tradition and widely believed by Catholic and Orthodox Christians. But either way, she needed a husband because she wasn't about to ride a camel all the way to Egypt with a newborn son by herself. Nothing is written about it that I know of, but if Mary did conscecrate herself to God, it probably took some time to convince the Temple priests to allow it. After all, you don't see anything in the Law about living a celibate life, nor is there much mention of it elsewhere in the Old Testament. The non-negotiable factor, however, would be marriage. In fact, being consecrated to God probably made it even more important for her to be married.

The other element of this tradition, that Joseph was himself advanced in years and either a virgin throughout his life or had been married before with children who were already raised, also fits with Mary being consecrated. Clearly, a husband would be chosen for her who would be suited to a marriage that would not be consummated. I imagine it wasn't an easy task to have all this arranged for her... which only makes her pregnancy all the more scandalous, doesn't it?

Edited December 3, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Theosopher]

[quote]Right now I am looking at the first chapter of Luke (using the NAB). Both Zechariah and Mary are visited by an angel - both were "troubled" and question the angel concerning what is said - but only one gets punished for this: Zechariah. Why?[/quote]

My answer to the initial question is a more basic one: One of Mary's titles is Queen of the Angels - it is not the place of an angel to punish his Queen.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1717290' date='Dec 3 2008, 10:43 AM']The other element of this tradition, that Joseph was himself advanced in years and either a virgin throughout his life or had been married before with children who were already raised, also fits with Mary being consecrated. Clearly, a husband would be chosen for her who would be suited to a marriage that would not be consummated. I imagine it wasn't an easy task to have all this arranged for her... which only makes her pregnancy all the more scandalous, doesn't it?[/quote]

That was a very interesting explanation, thank you. It raises more questions though.

If Mary was consecrated, and the Temple priests heard/saw that Mary was pregnant, would there be any "punishment?" Either for Mary or for Joseph (he was supposed to look out for her, after all). Furthermore, once Christ was found teaching [i]in[/i] the Temple, and even His later ministry work, what if the priests got crazy thoughts that Mary and Joseph "founded" their own Judaism as retribution for being "punished" (I dunno, like crazy radicals) and brainwashed their child into thinking that He was the Messiah?

You are right, allowing Mary to consecrate herself must have been very difficult, and finding Joseph must have been very difficult, so it doesn't make sense that there wouldn't be a verse in Scripture somewhere about the scandal and the priests stepping in to do something.

[quote name='Theosopher' post='1720753' date='Dec 6 2008, 05:17 AM']My answer to the initial question is a more basic one: One of Mary's titles is Queen of the Angels - it is not the place of an angel to punish his Queen.[/quote]

Hey, I like this!

[Lilllabettt]

It was not unheard of for a Jewish person to consecrate themselves to God alone. It is unusual, yes, but its not totally out of the ordinary. John the Baptist, is one. I'm under the impression that it was common among the Essenes.

I personally believe that there were many girls who lived and prayed in the temple until they hit puberty and then, becoming ritually unclean, were married off. This is what happened to Mary. She was worried about it, because she wanted to belong only to God ... so someone who knew her heart found Joseph for her, he being the unusual man who wanted to live a celibate life as well.

He knew that his wife had consecrated herself to God, so when she became pregnant, he knew it was from God. He felt unworthy, so he wanted to quietly divorce her. Scripture says he was "a just man," and a just man who thought his wife committed adultery against him would have turned her over to be stoned, as the law demanded. But he knew it was from God, so he wanted to do it quietly.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Theosopher' post='1720753' date='Dec 6 2008, 06:17 AM']My answer to the initial question is a more basic one: One of Mary's titles is Queen of the Angels - it is not the place of an angel to punish his Queen.[/quote]


This is pretty cool ... except, not only is it not the place of an angel to punish his Queen ... Mary definitely never did anything that would deserve punishment.

Zechariah doubted it could happen, Mary asked how it would happen. Two different responses, only one deserving of a punishment.