American Muslim Threatens Us Over Support For Israel

[Hassan]

[quote]This is a very good (and frightening) point. The terrorists' ideal is to rid the world of anyone who does not agree with them.[/quote]

That depends who are "the terrorists"? You talk as though "the terrorists" are a homogenous body with a single minded goal. That is both demonstrably false by both various terrorist groups stated goals and sociological analysis of their movements.

[quote]While fantasizing about this ideal, what else do you think they are concocting? Expansion, obviously; but expanding to cover the entire globe?[/quote]

Really? Do the Chechens want to take over the world or just not to watch their children being slaughtered by the Russian army? Does striving for national self determination and liberation from the yoke of Russian imperialism constitution "expansionist" goals? Some do. Sayyed Qutb is very explicit in his goal (whose whole religious thought is essentially Islamized Leninist Marxism) of an Islamic vanguard to destroy all forms of tyranny and liberate "man" from being subject to tyranny or law other than "God's law". Both many Chechen militant groups and Sayyed Qutb's disciples would fall under your widely cats net of "terrorist" yet they have radically different goals (Qutb in line with your thoughts here, others not), contexts, and histories and assigning any single agency to them has no basis in fact.

[Hassan]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1747447' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:04 PM']As much as i hate to admit it; even tho it may be a tirade, by that fact alone does not dismiss the disgusting events therein.[/quote]


of course not.

[Hassan]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1747431' date='Jan 9 2009, 05:57 PM']Bill Clinton couldn't have said it better.

[/quote]
I understand your point but this isn’t semantics. Even if we confine this to NGO’s and only Muslim terrorist groups, excluding secular, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, etc terrorism to act as though all groups under the label of “terrorist” are in lockstep and universal motivation is simply wrong.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1747429' date='Jan 9 2009, 04:56 PM']Yes. Although I need to know how you define "terrorist" and "lunatic"[/quote]

For starters, how about the kind that hijacked our planes and crashed them into the Twin Towers?

Edited January 9, 2009 by HisChildForever

[BG45]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1747465' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:15 PM']That depends who are "the terrorists"? You talk as though "the terrorists" are a homogenous body with a single minded goal. That is both demonstrably false by both various terrorist groups stated goals and sociological analysis of their movements.



Really? Do the Chechens want to take over the world or just not to watch their children being slaughtered by the Russian army? Does striving for national self determination and liberation from the yoke of Russian imperialism constitution "expansionist" goals? Some do. Sayyed Qutb is very explicit in his goal (whose whole religious thought is essentially Islamized Leninist Marxism) of an Islamic vanguard to destroy all forms of tyranny and liberate "man" from being subject to tyranny or law other than "God's law". Both many Chechen militant groups and Sayyed Qutb's disciples would fall under your widely cats net of "terrorist" yet they have radically different goals (Qutb in line with your thoughts here, others not), contexts, and histories and assigning any single agency to them has no basis in fact.[/quote]

I'm seriously trying not to laugh in a manner that betrays how sick I find your portrayal of the Chechens. Chechen rebels, for the most part, are not some noble idealistic individuals fighting for their children. If Russia invaded my country, I imagine that Americans would continue to resist them as well, but I would hope we would not do so in the manner of Chechen terrorists who attack Russian public transportation, who attack Russian fast food establishments, who attack Russian theaters, and who attack Russian schools like happened in Beslan where both sides stupidity led to most of the children being slaughtered in the crossfire.

They don't fight for an expansionist goal of some sort, they don't fight for freedom that they know is impossible. They fight for revenge, with some of them still dreaming of freedom from Russian oppression that has lasted for almost a generation. There is a fine line between freedom fighter and rebel and terrorist, and when one starts attacking innocent children, one has crossed that line; at least in my opinion, do you disagree?

Edited January 10, 2009 by BG45

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='BG45' post='1747636' date='Jan 9 2009, 07:28 PM']I'm seriously trying not to laugh in a manner that betrays how sick I find your portrayal of the Chechens. Chechen rebels, for the most part, are not some noble idealistic individuals fighting for their children. If Russia invaded my country, I imagine that Americans would continue to resist them as well, but I would hope we would not do so in the manner of Chechen terrorists who attack Russian public transportation, who attack Russian fast food establishments, who attack Russian theaters, and who attack Russian schools like happened in Beslan where both sides stupidity led to most of the children being slaughtered in the crossfire.

They don't fight for an expansionist goal of some sort, they don't fight for freedom that they know is impossible. They fight for revenge, with some of them still dreaming of freedom from Russian oppression that has lasted for almost a generation. There is a fine line between freedom fighter and rebel and terrorist, and when one starts attacking innocent children, one has crossed that line; at least in my opinion, do you disagree?[/quote]

Hassan is defending terrorists. DEFENDING. There are no words.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='rachael' post='1747390' date='Jan 9 2009, 05:29 PM']

i just really want my hummus. [/quote]

You are very rude. Even in the face of a moderator already asking for this nonsense to STOP.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1747447' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:04 PM']As much as i hate to admit it; even tho it may be a tirade, by that fact alone does not dismiss the disgusting events therein.[/quote]

It is not a "tirade". It is an article from a website.

[Guest]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1747465' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:15 PM']That depends who are "the terrorists"? You talk as though "the terrorists" are a homogenous body with a single minded goal. That is both demonstrably false by both various terrorist groups stated goals and sociological analysis of their movements.[/quote]

the terrorist are the muslims who really believe in this false religion to the core. the religon that says to have no regard to christains and those who disagree with you and to kill them. the terrorist are those extremist who think jesus is just a prophet and that God is going to confront him.

the terrorist lose
the terrorist burn in hell forever
never to be remembered
cant wait !

[Hassan]

[quote name='BG45' post='1747636' date='Jan 9 2009, 08:28 PM']I'm seriously trying not to laugh in a manner that betrays how sick I find your portrayal of the Chechens.[/quote]

Let's see how I portrayed the Chechens.

"Do the Chechens want to take over the world or just not to watch their children being slaughtered by the Russian army? Does striving for national self determination and liberation from the yoke of Russian imperialism constitution "expansionist" goals?"

Now what are my comments about the Chechens
1-I asked if they are more interested in
(a)taking over the world
(b)not having to watch their children being slaughtered by the Russia Army
2-I asked if striving against Russian imperialism constituted an "expansionist goal".

Now what exactly is sick here? The demonstrable record of war crimes committed against Chechen civilian against the Russians or that it is largely of movement of national self determination rather than an "expansionist agenda". Obviously these are generalities. Not every Chechen has had a child killed by the Russian army, it was a rhetorical devise to call attention to the diversity of motive within various terrorist movements and that some of them are (illegitimate) responses to legitimate grievances rather than her unscientific universalism.


[quote]Chechen rebels, for the most part, are not some noble idealistic individuals fighting for their children.[/quote]

When did I describe them as "noble". The Chechen grievances against Russia are very real and very legitimate. While much of the motivation of anti Russian sentiment that fuels Chechen terrorist groups is very real never once did I glorify the Chechen militant groups or their actions nor would I.

[quote]If Russia invaded my country, I imagine that Americans would continue to resist them as well, but I would hope we would not do so in the manner of Chechen terrorists who attack Russian public transportation, who attack Russian fast food establishments, who attack Russian theaters, and who attack Russian schools like happened in Beslan where both sides stupidity led to most of the children being slaughtered in the crossfire.[/quote]

The events in Beslan were not an "attack" they were the slaughter of several hundred innocent Russian children. I did not defend the means by which the various Chechen groups resist Russian incursion, I defended their legitimate grievances against the Russians and rejected the idea that Chechen terrorism constituted "expansionism"

[quote]They don't fight for an expansionist goal of some sort, they don't fight for freedom that they know is impossible. They fight for revenge, with some of them still dreaming of freedom from Russian oppression that has lasted for almost a generation.[/quote]

The conflict in Chechnya has been occurring off and on for longer than a generation. On one hand you deny that "they" fight for freedom, you then claim they fight for revenge and also for "dreams of freedom". The fact is, I assume you know, that even amongst the Chechens there is no universalism. Some Chechen movements as of late have been influenced by Al-Quaida, others are legitimate nationalist movements fighting for national autonomy.

[quote]There is a fine line between freedom fighter and rebel and terrorist, and when one starts attacking innocent children, one has crossed that line; at least in my opinion, do you disagree?[/quote]

I'm not going to dignify that question with an answer, as though I would ever defend attacking innocent children.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1747647' date='Jan 9 2009, 08:35 PM']Hassan is defending terrorists. DEFENDING. There are no words.[/quote]


Where have I defended terrorists?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1747669' date='Jan 9 2009, 08:50 PM']the terrorist are the muslims who really believe in this false religion to the core. the religon that says to have no regard to christains and those who disagree with you and to kill them. the terrorist are those extremist who think jesus is just a prophet and that God is going to confront him.

the terrorist lose
the terrorist burn in hell forever
never to be remembered
cant wait ![/quote]
Well that’s certainly a scientifically viable definition.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1747525' date='Jan 9 2009, 07:12 PM']For starters, how about the kind that hijacked our planes and crashed them into the Twin Towers?[/quote]


They certianly fall under [i]my[/i] definition of terrorists, but seeing as you have yet to define what [i]you[/i] mean by the term I can't say. How do you define "terrorist" and how do you define "lunatic"?

[Guest]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1747677' date='Jan 9 2009, 08:58 PM']Well that’s certainly a scientifically viable definition.[/quote]

that pretty much sums it up
christ said who was not for him was against him
if you are against christ you are a terrorist
that simple

[Hassan]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1747680' date='Jan 9 2009, 09:01 PM']that pretty much sums it up
christ said who was not for him was against him
if you are against christ you are a terrorist
that simple[/quote]


So everyone who is not a Christian is a terrorist?