Whats Your View On Bi Or Gay People

[shadowstich]

and sorry this is a bit of a touchy subject for me, and i am sorry i am being overly argumentitive

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1748903' date='Jan 11 2009, 07:57 PM']"Gay" Animals
Source: [url="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html"]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20..._gayanimal.html[/url]



and[/quote]

Animals act on instinct, not reason. Reason is a unique gift of human beings. I think it's irresponsible of scientists to label some kind of strange bonding ritual between animals as homosexual. Animals also groom each other with their mouths, which we humans would find unthinkable to do ourselves. It seems totally reasonable to me that male animals may perform some kind of bonding ritual that can be mistaken for "sexual" but in reality may be some kind of ritual designed to test, prove or enhance their own masculinity...just as it is the male peacock who displays his beautiful tale feathers to attract a mate...not the female. Should we also call the male peacock a drag queen because he is the more glamorous and exotic of the genders? I find it silly, these scientists sitting around talking about gay animals.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='shadowstich' post='1748913' date='Jan 11 2009, 07:03 PM']and sorry this is a bit of a touchy subject for me, and i am sorry i am being overly argumentitive[/quote]

It's alright. It can be really hard for some people to understand.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1748906' date='Jan 11 2009, 07:59 PM']Are you suggesting that a lesbian couple could ask one of their brothers to impregnant his sister's partner or the sister herself??[/quote]


I believe he was not referring to a sister, but the sister's partner. I don't think they tend to use family members, though. Well, who knows what they do.

[Hilde]

I was going to start a thread about the same topic, but I guess I'll wait, lol.

Anyways, I always think "love the sinner, hate the sin"

I understand that they are put in a hard situation. One can't help being homosexual, but you can choose whether or not to be a practicing one.

[shadowstich]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1748922' date='Jan 11 2009, 06:10 PM']I believe he was not referring to a sister, but the sister's partner. I don't think they tend to use family members, though. Well, who knows what they do.[/quote]
She.
i am a girl, shadowstich is my pen name, which sounds guyish

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='shadowstich' post='1748909' date='Jan 11 2009, 08:01 PM']people can be worse then animals, people murder, rape, steel, lie, cheat, have wars... animals are not lower then us.
and yes there are gay animals, there are gay gorrilas and gay dogs.
ive seen a gay dog. they exist.
we learn things from animals...
and the way they tie together is that if animals who are as you say "lower" then us, can be gay. why cant we.[/quote]


They ARE lower than us. This is how science refers to them, as lower animals.

Also, seeing ONE "gay dog" (whatever that means) does not mean that homosexuality among lower animals generally is a common thing, because we already know it is not.

And still, I don't see ANY relationship between why, if there are gay animals, this should make it okay for people to be gay. People CANNOT be homosexuals. We do not have the physical makeup for that. For this reason, homosexual acts--which perversely simulate the natural sex act between a man and a woman--are unnatural and intrinsically disordered.

[shadowstich]

[quote name='shadowstich' post='1748924' date='Jan 11 2009, 06:11 PM']She.
i am a girl, shadowstich is my pen name, which sounds guyish[/quote]
and the thing is, ive been bi for a while (im currently dating a guy and planning to for awhile)
my issue is both things feel right.
i dontknow if its a phase or what, im just currious about others opinions as i am becoming christian, and trying to understand a few concepts

[tinytherese]

I wrote a research paper on same sex attraction for my english composition class last year. Looking at whether living out one's same sex attractions is healthy for the couple, potential children, and society. Not just the religious perspective on it.



Over the past two decades or so, the gay pride movement is gaining more and more recognition. We see rainbow bumper stickers and ribbons and comedy television series such as “Will and Grace” about homosexual men. People are pushing for tolerance and acceptance, yet if anyone objects to the lifestyle they are automatically labeled as homophobic and suspected for prejudices and even hate crimes against homosexuals. Is this an accurate picture? Are they really just bigots who are afraid and narrow? Real “homophobes” stand for love instead of hatred and fear.

First of all, one must take a look at the possible causes for homosexuality. Some may claim that it is genetic, but so far, scientists are unable to find the gene. “Dr. Dean Hamer (who coined the phrase “gay gene”) said, ‘We have not found the gene- which we don’t think exists- for sexual orientation’ ” (“What causes homosexuality?”). For the sake of argument, let us say that people are born this way. Even if one is biologically prone to a certain behavior, does this determine what is morally acceptable? For example, evidence shows that some people are genetically more prone to alcoholism. Certainly, this would not justify their behavior (“What causes homosexuality?”).

Some psychologists have proposed other reasons for homosexuality. One is that the person was sexually abused by a member of the opposite sex, even a parent (“What causes homosexuality?”). Homosexuality becomes their sanctuary so that they can escape the pain of abuse (“What causes homosexuality?”). “Also, a child who was sexually abused by a member of the same sex can become confused about his or her sexual orientation” (“What causes homosexuality?”). A second possible reason for homosexuality is that a parent of the opposite-sex became too absorbed in the life of the child. A mother and son may rely solely on each other for needs that should be met elsewhere, and this can contribute to gender identity confusion in the son (“What causes homosexuality?”).

A third possible reason is that the same- sex parent is either physically or emotionally absent. For example, a boy in this position may feel inferior and rejected by his peers when it comes to athletic activities with the other boys, causing him the inability to relate to his own sex (“What causes homosexuality?”). He then seeks a young man to identify with, and this desire to identify with one who is particularly masculine may be confused with the onset of homosexuality. Then if he acts on this and begins to explore the orientation, he may come to believe that he is homosexual. The attraction may have been there merely because the other young man possessed a level of masculinity that he admired and feared that he lacked (“What causes homosexuality?”). During adolescence one is in the midst of one’s identity search and many things are explored. One may feel confused in the midst of one’s identity search, so one is more susceptible to starting the gay lifestyle (“What causes homosexuality?”).

Many argue that homosexuality is natural, but first one must properly define what natural means. In the modern era, some define what is natural by whatever they feel. In a nutshell they believe that “If it feels good, do it” (“How can people say that homosexuality isn’t natural?”). The problem is that one could justify all kinds of unsafe and even immoral actions with this reasoning. For example, if I feel like robbing a bank would it be morally acceptable to do it? It’s natural for me to feel that way when I am low on money is it not? Obviously, such an action would be unethical. Let us take a look at what is called natural law, meaning when things are gathered together the way that they are designed to. One example of natural law is that a plant cannot survive without sun, because darkness does not help it grow and therefore stay alive (“How can people say that homosexuality isn’t natural?”). Now, let us move on to the way that people were designed. “First of all, consider that a man’s body really doesn’t make sense without a woman’s body. The same goes for her. The two complement each other. For example, the sperm and the egg serve no purpose in isolation from each other. Yet, everyone on the planet is here because of the union of the two” (“How can people say that homosexuality isn’t natural?”). Children can never result from gay sex.

Health issues reveal that homosexuality is not the way that our bodies were made. For gay men, because sperm are meant to inhibit the immune system their odds of developing anal infections are increased. They are more likely to contract HIV, anal cancer (from HPV,) hepatitis, throat gonorrhea, and ten times as likely as heterosexuals to get syphilis. Many of them also suffer from what is called “gay bowel syndrome” (“How can people say that homosexuality isn’t natural?”). Lesbians are especially at risk because most have slept with other males beforehand, some of whom were bisexual, and they typically have more sexual partners than heterosexual women. They are at a much higher risk for sexually transmitted diseases such as bacterial vaginosis, hepatitis C, and HIV than heterosexual women (“How can people say that homosexuality isn’t natural?”). From this research how can we say that our bodies were made for homosexuality or even bisexuality?

Should gay couples adopt children? Plenty of heterosexual parents are not always fit to raise children properly, so why not let homosexuals adopt them? They may be even better parents. Before one gives a gay couple a form, I would like to ask a question of my own: Do we want what is best for children? I highly doubt that anyone replied no, and of course this is true. Now, here are some facts that one must consider.

Sociological studies agree that children are at risk when a mother or father is absent. Their likelihood of falling into criminal behavior, substance abuse, and psychological problems are increased (“What’s wrong with gay couples adopting kids?”). Both a mother and a father are irreplaceable to an individual. The children of gay parents have the natural desire for them both, but have difficulty expressing this because they may feel ungrateful or guilty for admitting it. Rosie O’Donnell adopted a son, and when he was six, stated that he wanted a daddy. Her reply was, “If you were to have a daddy, you wouldn’t have me as a mommy because I’m the kind of mommy who wants another mommy. This is the way mommy got born.” He answered that he would just keep her. She made her son feel that by wanting a dad that he was rejecting her (“What’s wrong with gay couples adopting kids?”). Children will also not have a healthy understanding of motherhood and fatherhood. New York Times Magazine once did a story on two girls who were raised by a lesbian couple. One of them admitted that, “I cannot understand or relate to men because I am so immersed in gay culture and unfamiliar with what it is to have a straight relationship” (“What’s wrong with gay couples adopting kids?”). This does not sound like a healthy situation for a child to be in.
According to research studies gay men and women have much higher rates of suicide, alcoholism, and depression than heterosexual men and women. Many respond that this is because of prejudice and bigotry; however, in locations where homosexuality is more widely accepted the numbers are even higher. The notion that such problems are caused by society’s condemnation of them is clearly refuted (Pinto 223). International Journal of Epidemiology released findings that, “The life expectancy of homosexual men is 38 years, and only 2% of homosexual men live past the age of 65” (“What’s wrong with gay couples adopting kids?”).

This does not apply to everyone, but homosexuals are often in unstable and promiscuous relationships. Studies on homosexuality have found that homosexuals sleep with many partners, even hundreds. Premarital sex is tied to higher divorce rates, so these studies reveal a troubling trend when one speaks about the possibility of adopting children (“What’s wrong with gay couples adopting kids?”). Research has also done research on “exclusive” relationships:
A study of 156 homosexual men (who were in relationships lasting
between 1 and 37 years) discovered that none of the men who were in
relationships longer than five years had been faithful to each other. Out of
all 156 couples, only seven were monogamous, and the steady couples
were most likely to engage in the most “unsafe” sexual acts. Yet another
researcher found that the average cohabitating homosexual relationship
lasts less than three years. (“What’s wrong with gay couples adopting kids?”)

As one can see, the homosexual lifestyle is an unhealthy environment to raise a child in. The life is not even healthy for homosexuals.

Now let us look at the Christian faith perspective, particularly the Catholic one. Homosexuality in itself is not a sin unless one either acts upon the desires or encourages them by deliberately indulging in fantasies about those of the same sex (“Homosexuality”). Scripture specifically mentions opposition to the lifestyle. In Genesis 19, two angels in disguise visit the city of Sodom and are taken in by Lot. Some men in Sodom demand that the guests be handed over for homosexual intercourse, but Lot refuses. The town is soon consumed by fire, “because of the outcry against its people has become great before the Lord” (Gen. 19:13). Homosexual activists may reject the claim by arguing that the lack of hospitality brought about God’s wrath (“Homosexuality”). True, the inhospitality did help to bring about the town’s destruction but so did the homosexual acts. “Jude 7 records that Sodom and Gomorrah ‘acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust.’ Ezekiel says that Sodom committed ‘abominal things’ (Ezek. 16:50), which could refer to homosexual and heterosexual acts of sin” (“Homosexuality”).

Another example of condemning homosexuality is also found in the Bible. “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination” (Lev. 18:22). Many homosexual activists argue that moral imperatives from the Old Testament can now be dismissed because there were certain ceremonial requirements at the time such as circumcising male babies and completely abstaining from pork that are no longer binding. Indeed, the ceremonial requirements are no longer binding; however the moral requirements are because they are eternal and apply to all times and cultures (“Homosexuality”). If this moral requirement was no longer binding, then why does Paul in the New Testament speak out against it as well (Rom. 1:26-28, 32, 1 Cor. 6:9-10)?
Some ask why if two people of the same sex love each other and are willing to stay faithful for life cannot get married. Marriage definitely needs both love and faithfulness, but these are not the only ingredients. First of all, one must consider these simple, but often overlooked facts. God made both marriage and sex and created them according to His own design; therefore they are good and holy (“If two people of the same sex really love each other?”). A valid marriage must be free, total, faithful, and designed to give life, yet gay couples cannot give life because they cannot have children together (“If two people of the same sex really love each other?”) . When a man and woman have sex, they say their wedding vows with their bodies, because in intercourse they physically say, “I give my whole self to you” (Pinto 212). Not only is this why sex outside of marriage is a lie, but these vows could never be said in a homosexual “marriage.” In scripture we find that, “a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body” (Gen. 2:24). Two people of the same sex obviously cannot become one body in intercourse, for they were not designed to give themselves completely to each other because God did not make them that way.

A popular argument today is that, “this is the way God made me.” Though this may appear to be a reasonable conclusion to some, when taken at a closer look the claim falls flat. God does not make anyone like this, but permits them to have the orientation. This, however, does not mean that God created them that way or wants them to engage in homosexual acts. For example, God permits people to have physical or even mental disorders, but certainly no one believes that they are good in themselves (Pinto 224). He allows sin and other bad things to happen for a time in order to bring an even greater good from them that we may or may not be aware of or understand at the time (Rom. 5: 20-21). These are used to help us grow in holiness, but again are not good in themselves (2 Cor 12:9; Mt 5: 3-6; Pinto 225). If we all decided to act on harmful impulses using the “God made me this way so I can act this way logic” then anything, no matter how corrupt, could be justified (Rom 6; 1 Pt 5: 8-9; Pinto 225).

Does God accept homosexuals? Yes, but perhaps not in the sense that one may think. “God is love, so in that sense He ‘accepts’ everybody. But He does not accept everything a person does (1 Jn 4:8). The real question is, Will we accept God? Will we accept His love for us, even if that means giving up whatever sinful lifestyle we have chosen (Mt 5:1-12, 6:19-21)” (Pinto 227)? Blessed Mother Teresa called homosexuals “friends of Jesus” but still called them to conversion. She once said, “Jesus loves you always, even when you don’t feel worthy. When not accepted by others, even by yourself sometimes, He is the one who always accepts you. Only believe, you are precious to Him. Bring all you are suffering to His feet, only open your heart to be loved by Him as you are. He will do the rest” (“Considering that a third of all teen suicides are gays”).

What is a homosexual to do when they resolve to follow the Lord? Before Benedict XVI became pope, he wrote a response to the issue. “Fundamentally, they are called to enact the will of God in their life by joining whatever sufferings and difficulties they experience in the virtue of their condition to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross. That Cross, for the believer, is a fruitful sacrifice since from that death come life and redemption” (Letter To The Bishops). He continues, saying that this acceptance, no, embrace of The Cross is not a meaningless effort of self-denial, but a denial of self in the service to the will of God who brings life from death and empowers those who trust in Him to practice virtue instead of vice. According to the Catechism, “Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection” (2347). Through embracing one’s cross, prayer, the sacraments, and the virtue of chastity one can overcome such desires. Those who wish to seek further help in discovering heterosexuality are recommended to seek Dr. Nicolosi’s Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic in Los Angeles, Fr. John Harvey’s ministry, or couragerc.net. They have had excellent results (Pinto 227; “Homosexuality”).

Homosexual activists may argue that we are judging them, or even go as far as to say that we are justifying prejudice, even hate-crimes, but they are misunderstood. We hate the sin but not the sinner (Pinto 224). Jesus Himself said, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone” (Jn 8:7). We simply call them to repentance with authentic humility (Lk 24:15-17). Hate crimes and all acts of bigotry are clearly condemned:
It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law (Ratzinger).

Everyone is called to treat homosexuals with dignity and respect. There is absolutely no excuse for harassment, prejudice, or hate crimes. We are called to lead homosexuals on the road to truth and joy by loving them. Nothing evangelizes better than love. Jesus said, “As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (Jn 13:34-35). We love them by respecting them, and being kind to them, and showing them compassion. Each individual yearns for love, and homosexuals, like everyone else, are in search of fulfilling love that will last, because no one is complete without it. Let us freely give it to them.

What is true love? True love desires what is best for the other person, no matter what the personal cost, and these facts reveal that the homosexual lifestyle is not what is best for them or society (“If two people of the same sex love each other?”). “Homophobes” are merely fearful for their homosexual brothers and sisters, not of them. Real “homophobes” stand for love instead of hatred and fear.









Works Cited
Catechism of the Catholic Church. 2nd ed. The Holy See. Rome: Libreria Editrice
Vaticana, 1997.
“Considering that a third of all teen suicides are gays, why can’t people just accept them
for who they are?” Pureloveclub.com. Electric Pulp. 2007. 14 November 2007.
<http://www.pureloveclub.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=239>.
“Homosexuality.” Catholic.com. 10 Aug. 2004. 14 Nov. 2007 <http://catholic.com/
library/Homosexuality.asp>.
“How can people say that homosexuality isn’t natural?” Pureloveclub.com. Electric Pulp.
2007. 14 November 2007. <http://www.pureloveclub.com/chastity/index.php?id
=7&entryid=249>.
“If two people of the same sex really love each other and are willing to stay faithful for
life, why can’t they get married?” Pureloveclub.com. Electric Pulp. 2007. 14
November 2007. <http:www.pureloveclub.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid
=254>.
The New American Bible. Ed. Hartman, Canada: World Bible Inc., 1987.
Pinto, Matthew J. Did Adam & Eve Have Belly Buttons? 2003. West Chester: Ascension
Press, 1998.
Ratzinger, Joseph Cardinal. Letter To The Bishops of the Catholic Church On The
Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons. Letter, Congregation of The
Doctrine of The Faith. 1 Oct. 1986. Vatican.va. 15 Nov. 2007 <http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_
cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html>.
“What causes homosexuality? If it’s genetic, is it okay to be gay if you’re born that
way?” Pureloveclub.com. Electric Pulp. 2007. 29 November 2007. <http://pure
loveclub.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=74>.
“What’s wrong with gay couples adopting kids?” Pureloveclub.com. Electric Pulp.2007.
16 November 2007. <http://pureloveclub.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=
254>.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='shadowstich' post='1748927' date='Jan 11 2009, 08:14 PM']and the thing is, ive been bi for a while (im currently dating a guy and planning to for awhile)
my issue is both things feel right.
i dontknow if its a phase or what, im just currious about others opinions as i am becoming christian, and trying to understand a few concepts[/quote]


I find it really helpful to think in terms of the nature God has created rather than thinking in terms of "rules". Nature and true religion will never contradict each other. Nature does present certain boundaries in order for nature to be respected. There really is no natural reason for any person to be "bi-sexual". You can have a very close and loving relationship with a woman, like a sisterly bond, but if it becomes sexual you are operating outside the boundaries of nature and this only leads to internal conflict and confusion.

[Maggyie]

The argument about gay animals is a common one. It is entirely possible that science will one day isolate what they call the "gay gene" as something that exists in both humans and animals. But it's wrong to compare humans to animals when it comes to sex, our sexual lives have much deeper meaning and significance vs. raw instinct. Human sexual relationships are BOTH unitive and procreative, for instance.

But anyway, the fact that what appears to be homosexual activity occurs in nature is sort of irrelevant. Even if you are genetically pre-programmed to have bisexual inclinations, that has nothing to do with whether it is right to act on them and it doesn't mean that you "have" to be attach the label bisexual to yourself. By all accounts I am biologically inclined to mental illness, obesity, and alcoholism, and yet I am not a drinker, I am at a very healthy weight and there are no signs of mental illness so far that I'VE noticed Our genes are not our destiny; your bisexuality is probably equal parts nature and nurture (due to the way you were raised).

There is probably a criminality gene - I remember we had discussions about this in my ethics class - even if there is a gene that indicates a greater propensity to commit crimes like rape or murder, or even pettier offenses, society would not be justified in preemptively locking up people who carried the gene. Because just because it's in your DNA doesn't mean it's inevitable. And of course a thief could not justify his theft by insisting that it is natural for him to want to steal.

I don't mean to compare your sexual preference to violent crime, I'm just pointing out that whether something is right or wrong is independent of its "naturalness" or how it makes you feel Whenever we try to evaluate a behavior from an objective ethical point of view, we have to leave aside how strong the compulsion is etc although that can certainly be hard to do!

Edited January 12, 2009 by Maggie

[shadowstich]

thankyou for your opinions

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='shadowstich' post='1748901' date='Jan 11 2009, 06:57 PM']gay people can still choose to have children (either by addoption or by getting someone else to get someone pregnant(if there were two girls married [b]one girl could have their brother donate sperm)[/b][/quote]

Um. Ew.

[shadowstich]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' post='1748961' date='Jan 11 2009, 07:00 PM']Um. Ew.[/quote]
just what i heard. personally i dont want children, but i think i might change my mind if i fell in love with a guy and he wanted kids
personally i want to be a bio mechanical engineer or a teacher. i like little kids, and i currently teach little kids martial arts

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1748900' date='Jan 11 2009, 07:56 PM']There aren't any gay animals. And even if there were, why would you compare people to animals? Even though, technically, we are animals too...but why would you compare people to lower animals? What does one have to do with the other? Since when are people expected to exhibit the same behavior as lower animals? I'm not seeing the connection...or rather, the point of mentioning lower animals in a discussion about human homosexuality and whether God loves gays.[/quote]

What is the rational process by which one demarcates the “Higher Animal” from the “lower Animals”? Is this a strict demarcation or is it a gradual separation?