Mass obligations for families with small children et.

[IcePrincessKRS]

The following discussion has been split from this topic: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=89307&st=20&gopid=1752197&#entry1752197"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...p;#entry1752197[/url] so as to avoid taking the original thread too far off topic.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1751901' date='Jan 15 2009, 12:41 PM']1. No, the Church requires neither children under seven, nor their caretakers to fulfill the ordinarily grave obligation.

2. Yes, you should go anyway.

3. Yes, you should try to sit through as much of Mass as possible.

4. No, you should not stay when your child distracts from the solemnity of the Mass.

5. Yes, you should still stay in the building, wherever the child may be distracted.

6. Yes, you should return to Mass when the child quiets downs and repeat the cycle as needed.

7. Yes, it is okay to use commonsense in approaching this situation.

8. Yes, it is okay to be frustrated.

9. No, it is not okay for other parishioners to be unsympathetic.

10. Yes, I've been through this before and am going through it again.

Tips: Bring lots of finger food. Cheerios has always been a life-saver for us. Also, bringing paper and crayon is helpful. Since the child is too young to get anything intellectual out of the Mass, the sole benefit to the child is exposure to the Real Presence and the atmosphere. Remind yourself of this - that you are still a good parent and a good Catholic - when forced to take your child out of the sanctuary.[/quote]




[quote name='StColette' post='1751908' date='Jan 15 2009, 12:45 PM']Am I not reading this statement properly? Are you saying that the Church doesn't require kids or their parents to go to Mass?[/quote]
I think he may be referring to this Catechism quote,

[quote]CCC 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.[/quote]

which does give an allowance for not being able to go to Mass for parents caring for infants (note that it specifically says "infants" and not "children/toddlers"), but I don't think that caring for an infant is generally a real impediment when it comes to attending Mass. I can understand if your child is being really difficult during Mass and it's no longer possible to stay without causing a great disruption, but simply "I have a baby to take care of" doesn't really seem to me to be a grave enough reason for me to skip Mass.

[StColette]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1751917' date='Jan 15 2009, 11:58 AM']I think he may be referring to this Catechism quote,
which does give an allowance for not being able to go to Mass for parents caring for infants (note that it specifically says "infants" and not "children/toddlers"), but I don't think that caring for an infant is generally a real impediment when it comes to attending Mass. I can understand if your child is being really difficult during Mass and it's no longer possible to stay without causing a great disruption, but simply "I have a baby to take care of" doesn't really seem to me to be a grave enough reason for me to skip Mass.[/quote]

Yeah, I would say that generally that would not be a real impediment to not attend Mass. Of course, newborns during flu season should generally be kept from big crowds, other than the infant/child being sick I don't see a real valid reason not to bring the child to Mass. If the child is very unruly then the switching back and forth between parents or caregivers might be needed so that Mass can be attended. But it's my belief that once a child has been baptized then they have been brought into the family of the Church and should attend Mass. Children can grow in holiness from a very young age, well before the age of reason. Plus that Catechism quote doesn't say "before the age of reason" it says infants.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='StColette' post='1751908' date='Jan 15 2009, 12:45 PM']Am I not reading this statement properly? Are you saying that the Church doesn't require kids or their parents to go to Mass?[/quote]

From:

[i]Moral Theology [/i]
by Fr. Heribert Jone (Translated and adapted by Fr. Urban Adelman, O.F.M. Cap., J.C.D.)

This Edition (republished by Tan Books):

[b]Nihil Obstat:[/b] Pius Kaelin, O.F.M. Cap., Censor Deputatus

[b]Imprimi Potest:[/b] Giles Staab, O.F.M. Cap., Provincial, November 30, 1961

[b]Imprimatur:[/b] John J. Wright, D.D., Bishop of Pittsburgh, December 8, 1961

This book went through 18 editions in the German language alone and was translated into nine additional languages. Every edition and translation received the same Church-backing, bringing us to a total of [b]27 nihil obstats and imprimaturs[/b]. It is, as far as I know, the most authoritative, most trusted, and - by far - most exhaustive book of moral theology that I have ever come across. Tan says: [i]"It was universally accepted throughout the Catholic Church as authoritative and was recognized everywhere as the best book of its type."[/i]

Now that the credentials are out of the way, here is the quote:

[quote][b]198. - III. Excuses[/b] from assisting at Mass. Any moderately grave reason suffices to excuse one from assistence at Holy Mass, such as considerable hardship or corporal or spiritual harm either to oneself or another.

Therefore, the following are excused: the sick, convalescents, persons who cannot endure the air in church (e.g., certain neurotic persons and sometimes pregnant women in the first or last months of pregnancy); those that have a long way to church, people hindered by the duties of their state (e.g., shepherds, watchmen, policemen on duty, cooks, and those working in mills that may not shut down over Sunday); women or children who would incur the grave displeasure of their husbands or parents by attending Mass; servants whose masters do not permit them to attend Mass (should this happen consistently the servants should seek other employment); those that care for the sick, rescue workers in time of fire or flood; and those who have reason to think that by staying home they can hinder sin; or who would suffer injury to their good name or possessions by going to Church. (Thus: unmarried women who are pregnant, may remain home if by doing so they can avoid disgrace; similarly, those who lack clothing becoming to their social standing; those on a journey; those who would suffer the loss of extraordinary gain by attending Mass). One may miss Mass for the sake of a pleasure trip once or twice if he has no other opportunity during the year, or if it is the last opportunity he will ever have for a certain excursion. (Cf. 60.) Finally, custom in certain localities excuses such as, for example, lying-in women, widows in the first days of their bereavement, engaged persons whose marriage banns are published in the only Mass they can attend.[/quote]

I have transcribed this exactly as in the text for this post, with no emphasis added. Buried in the book elsewhere is another passage even more specific to children, but I'll have to thumb through it. This, however, should appease anyone in doubt of my moral competence and / or sources.

[b][i]EDIT:[/i] The context of the quoted text[/b] is in the section on the third commandment:

[quote]Chapter III
ATTENDANCE AT HOLY MASS

In order that the grave obligation of hearing Mass on Sundays and Holydays be fulfilled certain conditions are required on the part of the Mass and on the part of the attendants. - One may be excused from assisting at Mass for a proportionately good reason.[/quote]

Edited January 15, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[missionseeker]

that doesn't say anything about children not being required until they are 7...

[Ziggamafu]

And yes, CCC 2181 refers to the same subject.

Please, please, people; remember that ours is the religion of commonsense. For goodness sake!

[missionseeker]

so why would we wait til they were 7 to bring them to Mass?

[StColette]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1751927' date='Jan 15 2009, 12:22 PM']I have transcribed this exactly as in the text for this post, with no emphasis added. Buried in the book elsewhere is another passage even more specific to children, but I'll have to thumb through it. This, however, should appease anyone in doubt of my moral competence and / or sources.[/quote]

I'm not really sure what to think of some of those excuses. They may have fit for back when the book was first published, which I'm not sure when that was, but I would not say that some of these excuses fit for today.

198. - III. Excuses from assisting at Mass. Any moderately grave reason suffices to excuse one from assistence at Holy Mass, such as considerable hardship or corporal or spiritual harm either to oneself or another. I'll emphasize the ones I mean.

[quote]Therefore, the following are excused: the sick, convalescents, persons who cannot endure the air in church (e.g., certain neurotic persons and sometimes pregnant women in the first or last months of pregnancy); those that have a long way to church, people hindered by the duties of their state (e.g., shepherds, watchmen, policemen on duty, cooks, and those working in mills that may not shut down over Sunday); women or children who would incur the grave displeasure of their husbands or parents by attending Mass; servants whose masters do not permit them to attend Mass (should this happen consistently the servants should seek other employment); those that care for the sick, rescue workers in time of fire or flood; and those who have reason to think that by staying home they can hinder sin; or [b]who would suffer injury to their good name or possessions by going to Church. [/b](Thus: unmarried women who are pregnant, may remain home if by doing so they can avoid disgrace; similarly,[b] those who lack clothing becoming to their social standing[/b]; [b]those on a journey[/b]; those who would suffer the loss of extraordinary gain by attending Mass). [b]One may miss Mass for the sake of a pleasure trip once or twice if he has no other opportunity during the year, or if it is the last opportunity he will ever have for a certain excursion. [/b](Cf. 60.) Finally, custom in certain localities excuses such as, for example, lying-in women, widows in the first days of their bereavement, engaged persons whose marriage banns are published in the only Mass they can attend.[/quote]

Some of these just seem a little odd, especially about the "pleasure trip". I'm just not sure what to make of it.

The only quote I saw in reference to children was [quote]women or children who would incur the grave displeasure of their husbands or parents by attending Mass[/quote]. It doesn't mention anything about age of reason. And that would have to be some pretty grave displeasure for a parent not to bring their child to Mass. A child being fussy does not equal giving their parents grave displeasure, some displeasure sure, but I doubt grave.

I await the other text from the book. Thanks

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='missionseeker' post='1751930' date='Jan 15 2009, 01:28 PM'] that doesn't say anything about children not being required until they are 7...[/quote]


Yeah, there's a more specific passage buried in Jone...or maybe it was Prummer...but the point is adequately stated above. Nobody would be stupid enough to contend that a child under the age of reason (understood as seven by the Church) is bound by the grave obligations of the Church. Their caretakers are therefore likewise excused when the child presents an obstacle to the solemnity of the Mass, the participation of fellow parishioners, or in any other way presents a great hardship. Common. Sense.

That said, please refer to my list (number 2 and following).

[StColette]

[quote name='missionseeker' post='1751936' date='Jan 15 2009, 12:34 PM']so why would we wait til they were 7 to bring them to Mass?[/quote]

Exactly!

We may have to move this to debate rofl

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='missionseeker' post='1751936' date='Jan 15 2009, 01:34 PM']so why would we wait til they were 7 to bring them to Mass?[/quote]


We wouldn't. Who said we would?

[StColette]

[quote]Nobody would be stupid enough to contend that a child under the age of reason (understood as seven by the Church) is bound by the grave obligations of the Church.[/quote]

rephrasing:

As a First Communion teacher, I say that children under the age of reason should be required to attend Mass. It may not be considered "grave" matter if for some reason they are unable to attend. But as a parent it is my obligation to make sure that my child is attending Mass and growing in their faith. A child would be sorely lacking in growth if they did not attend Mass, even if they cannot receive the Eucharist yet. My 2nd graders know that they must go to Mass every Sunday, pray often, follow the Commandments, and not eat 1 hour before Mass. This is in order that they will continue to do this after their First Communion. As a parent, I would be lax in my responsibilities in my child's growth in the faith if I did not bring them to Mass. Children are able to participate in Mass in their own little way even if they aren't able to receive the Eucharist. If you create a routine with a child of attending Mass on Sunday, they will understand that it is something that they have to do every Sunday. When a child is baptized they are brought into the Church as a member of the Church and as such should attend Mass even if they are below the age of reason.

Children are very bright and understand things, if they are explained to them. I've seen 1 yr olds genuflect at the altar, I've witnessed them point to the tabernacle and say Jesus. They are able to understand a lot more than we give them credit for.

[missionseeker]

Yup. me too. My brother (6) slept through Midnight Mass. Since he has made his first confession, my mother maed him go to Christmas morning Mass (she would have woken him up if midnight was the only Mass we were going to, as we live 90 miles away from [i *don't* think a long drive is a good excuse to miss Mass (unless you don't have money for gas, I can understand that, we would tithe a lot more if we did not have to buy gas, as it is... we just want to get to Mass)] But we sing in the choir which doing both masses so we had a hotel.

Baptized Catholics belong in Mass. Period.

(Sometimes, they do have to be taken out screaming, though )

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='StColette' post='1751946' date='Jan 15 2009, 01:40 PM']rephrasing:

As a First Communion teacher, I say that children under the age of reason should be required to attend Mass. It may not be considered "grave" matter if for some reason they are unable to attend. But as a parent it is my obligation to make sure that my child is attending Mass and growing in their faith. A child would be sorely lacking in growth if they did not attend Mass, even if they cannot receive the Eucharist yet. My 2nd graders know that they must go to Mass every Sunday, pray often, follow the Commandments, and not eat 1 hour before Mass. This is in order that they will continue to do this after their First Communion. As a parent, I would be lax in my responsibilities in my child's growth in the faith if I did not bring them to Mass. Children are able to participate in Mass in their own little way even if they aren't able to receive the Eucharist. If you create a routine with a child of attending Mass on Sunday, they will understand that it is something that they have to do every Sunday. When a child is baptized they are brought into the Church as a member of the Church and as such should attend Mass even if they are below the age of reason.

Children are very bright and understand things, if they are explained to them. I've seen 1 yr olds genuflect at the altar, I've witnessed them point to the tabernacle and say Jesus. They are able to understand a lot more than we give them credit for.[/quote]


Ninja edit. Smart rephrase. Yes, [i]I agree with this post[/i], but not your post in its original, incorrect form.

[Ziggamafu]

Children should be saturated in a Catholic environment as much as possible in their formative years. Although most certainly not under grave obligation to attend mass, children under seven would have loving parents who did their best to get them there.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='StColette' post='1751937' date='Jan 15 2009, 01:34 PM']I'm not really sure what to think of some of those excuses. They may have fit for back when the book was first published, which I'm not sure when that was, but I would not say that some of these excuses fit for today.[/quote]

1962.

I see no defensible reason why any position stated in the book would not still apply today.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Ziggamafu