eagle_eye222001 Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1762848' date='Jan 26 2009, 07:47 PM']He's a good example of a lack of actual religious education. When people have no education, just start going to a church that doesn't even follow a lectionary, so the sermons are only on the preacher's pet topics, you get this. I'd say the same about Catholic politicians. Most had at most 8 years of basic Catholic CCD education, so never had an adult understanding of the faith. Improper or inadequate catechism is eroding the church from the inside.[/quote] No kidding. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/linkin+park/track/by+myself"]Linkin Park - By Myself[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1762838' date='Jan 26 2009, 08:35 PM']There was a thread around during the election where it showed a transcript of an interview with Obama on his faith. After reading through it, it was obvious Obama was no Christian. His answers were just, ridiculous. Obama seems to have no real heart in being a Christian. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/vertical+horizon/track/youre+a+god"]Vertical Horizon - You're a God[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote] That thread is [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=87078&hl=Obama%20Christian&st=0"]here.[/url] The original post is the interview itself without commentary or anything said afterward. The interview as it was for us to come to our own conclusions. However, anyone reading it can see the man is [b]not[/b] a Christian. He states that he does not believe that Christ is the Messiah, Son of God, etc. He states that he does not believe in heaven or hell. He states that he does not believe in sin. He took an altar call, which he states that he did not see as him being "saved" but just a symbollic act to show he had some form of faith growing in him. But faith in what? No one knows, nor does he state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1763137' date='Jan 27 2009, 01:20 AM']Hussein and Hassan were brothers. I don't care if he is a Christian to your standards, nor if he were a Muslim. However he is not a Muslim and considers himself a Christian.[/quote] Well I believe in God. I believe that Christ is the Son of God. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe in sin, and I believe in Heaven and Hell. I call myself an atheist. Am I an atheist though, just because I call myself that? No. It has nothing to do with standards. I am just not an atheist, no matter how much I profess that I am. Your standards of atheism have nothing to do with my not being one. My not being one is just a fact, due to the definition and what it means to be an atheist. Nothing about my beliefs resembles my professed atheism. It is a joke for Obama to call himself a Christian, just as it is a joke for me to call myself an atheist. Nothing about the beliefs he has stated resemble Christianity. It is offensive to continue to call him a Christian, despite that he obviously is not. Read the interview. Edited January 27, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Obama really appears to have embraced a mix of new age beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1763233' date='Jan 27 2009, 03:40 AM']Well I believe in God. I believe that Christ is the Son of God. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe in sin, and I believe in Heaven and Hell. I call myself an atheist. Am I an atheist though, just because I call myself that? No. It has nothing to do with standards. I am just not an atheist, no matter how much I profess that I am. Your standards of atheism have nothing to do with my not being one. My not being one is just a fact, due to the definition and what it means to be an atheist. Nothing about my beliefs resembles my professed atheism. It is a joke for Obama to call himself a Christian, just as it is a joke for me to call myself an atheist. Nothing about the beliefs he has stated resemble Christianity. It is offensive to continue to call him a Christian, despite that he obviously is not. Read the interview.[/quote] That's a different dituation. Obama considers himself a Christian and professes many beliefs in line with Christianity, he simply does not meet your qualifications. However he does not claim to be a Catholic or what you mean by a Christian but rather a liberal evangelicle, which he is in line with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1763317' date='Jan 27 2009, 05:57 AM']That's a different dituation. Obama considers himself a Christian and professes many beliefs in line with Christianity, he simply does not meet your qualifications. However he does not claim to be a Catholic or what you mean by a Christian but rather a liberal evangelicle, which he is in line with.[/quote] Does he consider himself a Christian, or just call himself a Christian for political gain? (Note: He has pretty much publicly stated that the latter is true.) Edited January 27, 2009 by T-Bone _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1763174' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:48 PM']And it might not change anything, but calling him President Hussein or O'bama the babykiller is not innaccurate. His name is Hussein and he is pro death (not pro choice, mind you).[/quote] Yea, of course it's not innacurate, but using his middle name like that is antagonistic and pointless... and for the record, I don't think he has any secret Muslim agenda, and it would be a bit of a conspiracy theory to think he does. In any case, even if it's all true and all accurate, have we really descended into name-calling again? This is elementary school stuff. We need to be both mature and intelligent, and calling him names is neither. We have to be better than them, smarter than them, and perfect as God is perfect. Calling him antagonistic names is none of those and it serves no usefull purpose at this point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1763317' date='Jan 27 2009, 08:57 AM']That's a different dituation. Obama considers himself a Christian and professes many beliefs in line with Christianity, he simply does not meet your qualifications. However he does not claim to be a Catholic or what you mean by a Christian but rather a liberal evangelicle, which he is in line with.[/quote] Name some. What are some beliefs in line with Chistianity? I didn't know you could even qualify as a "liberal evengalical" if you denied the divinity and Sonship of Christ. If he is a Christian then agnostics and universalists are Christians as well... atheists are Christians too. Anything is Christian. Christian is whatever you want it to be! Jesus or no Jesus... you are Christian! ... oh but it different for atheism. Edited January 27, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1763834' date='Jan 27 2009, 06:39 PM']Name some. What are some beliefs in line with Chistianity? I didn't know you could even qualify as a "liberal evengalical" if you denied the divinity and Sonship of Christ. If he is a Christian then agnostics and universalists are Christians as well... atheists are Christians too. Anything is Christian. Christian is whatever you want it to be! Jesus or no Jesus... you are Christian! ... oh but it different for atheism.[/quote] Where did he deney that Jesus was God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1763834' date='Jan 27 2009, 06:39 PM']I didn't know you could even qualify as a "liberal evengalical" if you denied the divinity and Sonship of Christ. If he is a Christian then agnostics and universalists are Christians as well... atheists are Christians too. Anything is Christian. Christian is whatever you want it to be! Jesus or no Jesus... you are Christian![/quote] Reminds me of a conversation I had in Open Mic not too long ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1764093' date='Jan 27 2009, 10:32 PM']Where did he deney that Jesus was God?[/quote] You stated that he had many beliefs that are the same as Christianity. I said, "Name some. What are some beliefs in line with Chistianity?" You respond back with the above [b]question.[/b] You got on to HisChildForever in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=89864&st=100"]a thread[/url] on the debate board for answering your question with a question and insinuated that she just did that because she was trying to avoid answering a question you asked. Well, I am going to call you out and say the same thing then. How did you say it? ... responding to the question you asked me to avoid answering the question I asked you could you answer the question I asked you which you avoided by answering a question with a question ... To answer your question though (which I really should protest like you did and just say "answer my question first and stop avoiding it"): He is asked in his interview who is Jesus to him. He says that Jesus is a teacher and a historical figure to him. He says that in Christianity (he avoids saying "to him") Jesus is a bridge between God and man. [quote]GG: Who’s Jesus to you? (He laughs nervously) OBAMA: Right. Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he’s also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher. And he’s also a wonderful teacher. I think it’s important for all of us, of whatever faith, to have teachers in the flesh and also teachers in history.[/quote] Honestly I think he is an agnostic. I don't believe he is a Christian. His beliefs are not that of a Christian. He is all, "I don't know. Anything goes. It is dangerous to be detailed. 'My God.' Well... I don't know. I wouldn't say that... I don't like absolutes. Blah. Blah. Whatever." Edited January 28, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1764407' date='Jan 28 2009, 02:40 AM']You stated that he had many beliefs that are the same as Christianity. I said, "Name some. What are some beliefs in line with Chistianity?" You respond back with the above [b]question.[/b] You got on to HisChildForever in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=89864&st=100"]a thread[/url] on the debate board for answering your question with a question and insinuated that she just did that because she was trying to avoid answering a question you asked. Well, I am going to call you out and say the same thing then. How did you say it?[/quote] The difference is that you continued past your question and made the rather extraordionary claim that he had denied the sonship of Christ. Obviously if this is true then you are correct and there is no reason to contiue. Given this one point could resolve the debate I felt it was fair to ask it. [quote]He is asked in his interview who is Jesus to him. He says that Jesus is a teacher and a historical figure to him. He says that in Christianity (he avoids saying "to him") Jesus is a bridge between God and man.[/quote] He says Jesus is a historical figure, and also the bridge between God and man in the Christian religion. How does he identify himself? As a Christian. [quote]Honestly I think he is an agnostic. I don't believe he is a Christian. His beliefs are not that of a Christian. He is all, "I don't know. Anything goes. It is dangerous to be detailed. 'My God.' Well... I don't know. I wouldn't say that... I don't like absolutes. Blah. Blah. Whatever."[/quote] Your free to your oppinion. However it seems you have followed that onle saying "for any oppinion, facts will be found to support it". You have a conclusion in mind and are searching to find ways to twist out of his words some cryptic meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1764531' date='Jan 28 2009, 11:45 AM']The difference is that you continued past your question and made the rather extraordionary claim that he had denied the sonship of Christ. Obviously if this is true then you are correct and there is no reason to contiue. Given this one point could resolve the debate I felt it was fair to ask it.[/quote] Ok. Sure. [quote]He says Jesus is a historical figure, and also the bridge between God and man in the Christian religion. How does he identify himself? As a Christian.[/quote] He says Jesus is a historical figure to him. He says Jesus is a teacher to him. And then he says "and he is a bridge between God and man in the Christian religion." Then earlier he says that he is a mix of all different things, but his roots are in Christianity. He says that there are many different paths to God. What is that suppose to mean? Jesus Christ is not the way? He doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit as a person of the Trinity. It is some power he feels when he is giving a speech and the crowd understands what he is trying to convey. He does not believe in sin. He does not believe in Heaven or Hell. He doesn't pray. He just dialouges with in himself trying to make a moral decision. That is called thinking and examining our conscience, not praying. He doesn't go to Church, and when he does it just happens to be to benefit him or for some occassion that is going to be public. He is very Oprah. Believe whatever you want. Whatever. Jesus? Eh. Holy Spirit? Eh. God?... well I don't like absolutes. He says he doesn't believe in absolutes. He doesn't even believe he has it right. What kind of faith is that? He goes with whatever. [quote]Your free to your oppinion. However it seems you have followed that onle saying "for any oppinion, facts will be found to support it". You have a conclusion in mind and are searching to find ways to twist out of his words some cryptic meaning.[/quote] Yes and you are free to yours. You can write his words off with some "It's no big deal. He's Christian" meaning. I don't have a conclusion in mind. Actually if the guy said he believed in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and he believed in the basic tenents of Christianity that even those who attend black liberal churches which he likes to frequent believe then I would just think he was a poor soul, like them, Christian but very very lost. He is not Christian. I have no problem thinking he is a Christian if he actually was. I would think he was a very poor Christian, but I would be fine with him saying he is a Christian if he could admit that God is the God and Jesus Christ is his son and there is life after this. How can someone believe in God and then not believe in life after death? He makes no sense. He is not Christian. He is as much Christian as I am atheist. Edited January 28, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1764531' date='Jan 28 2009, 08:45 AM']He says Jesus is a historical figure, and also the bridge between God and man in the Christian religion.[/quote] Christ is God and man, and not simply a "bridge" between God and man. [quote name='Hassan' post='1764531' date='Jan 28 2009, 08:45 AM']How does he identify himself? As a Christian.[/quote] How a person identifies himself does not prove that he is what he says he is. In his interview he never says that he has faith in Jesus Christ, or that Jesus Christ is the incarnate Word of God made man in order to overcome death and sin. He simply speaks about "religion" as a pragmatic way of making connections with other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1764582' date='Jan 28 2009, 12:30 PM']Christ is God and man, and not simply a "bridge" between God and man. How a person identifies himself does not prove that he is what he says he is. In his interview he never says that he has faith in Jesus Christ, or that Jesus Christ is the incarnate Word of God made man in order to overcome death and sin. He simply speaks about "religion" as a pragmatic way of making connections with other people.[/quote] Well hes not a theologian either. Obviously Christ is God and man, but I can see the term 'bridge' as ok also. However, a denial of the trinity\Holy Spirit seems to automatically disqualify him as a Christian. To be clear there are many factors that lead to this conclusion, I just don't think him saying Jesus is a 'bridge' between God and man is strong enough on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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