Veridicus Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 This is a topic which I've been reflecting on for a long time and I would like the input of the many thinking members of PM on this topic. It somewhat was brought up in the "Praying in Synogogues Thread" but I felt it deserved its own thread for discussion. At what point is simply using the name Jesus for the God you worship not good enough? At what point can naming the distortion of God that you've constructed in your head and then naming it "Jesus" become idoltry? If I were to believe that Jesus was God, but was CREATED by God the Father at the beginning, this would be heresy and my worship directed toward Jesus would be useless because I would be worshipping a false distortion of who he really is. What if I think Jesus didn't really 'die' on the cross? But I don't want this to be a discussion of old heresies...My purpose here is to get us thinking about MODERN heresies and the implications toward the same end as those early heresies. What if I think Jesus doesn't interact with the Church through the Sacraments? What if I do not believe that Jesus enters into communion with his Bride, the Church, through a participation in his true Body & Blood during the Eucharistic Liturgy? What if I think Jesus is okay with my using birth control in my marriage (or at any other time)? ......... I do not want this to simply be a protestant vs catholic discussion, but a discussion of the issue of HOW much can we change who the Church teaches the person of Jesus is in the Godhead (in terms of Christology and the moral teachings of the Church) before we no longer worship Jesus, but our own idol we've named "Jesus." Or is what I'm suggesting not possible so long as we 'try' to worship who we've called Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 "We do not seek a Christ whom we have invented, for it is only in the real communion of the Catholic Church that we encounter the real Christ" -then Cardinal Ratzinger outside of the Church, you do not encounter the real Christ (and depending upon the degree to which they have separated themselves, I have actually told friends Catholic and non-Catholic alike that their version of Christ amounts to, in my estimation, an imaginary friend who approves everything they approve and disapproves everything they disapprove because they're not connected to something outside themselves to determine who Christ is and what things Christ approves of and disapproves of.) inside the Church, you can encounter the real Christ even if you have misunderstandings about Him so long as you remain in the Church. outside of the Church, people may encounter the real Christ partially, but many of their understandings of Christ are false and to that degree, they are worshipping a false Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1771573' date='Feb 3 2009, 10:10 PM']"We do not seek a Christ whom we have invented, for it is only in the real communion of the Catholic Church that we encounter the real Christ" -then Cardinal Ratzinger outside of the Church, you do not encounter the real Christ (and depending upon the degree to which they have separated themselves, I have actually told friends Catholic and non-Catholic alike that their version of Christ amounts to, in my estimation, an imaginary friend who approves everything they approve and disapproves everything they disapprove because they're not connected to something outside themselves to determine who Christ is and what things Christ approves of and disapproves of.) inside the Church, you can encounter the real Christ even if you have misunderstandings about Him so long as you remain in the Church. outside of the Church, people may encounter the real Christ partially, but many of their understandings of Christ are false and to that degree, they are worshipping a false Christ.[/quote] That's kinda what I've been coming to terms with. (sorry to end the sentence with a preposition...) To the point where sometimes when I find myself amongst people of different faith backgrounds I feel possessive and almost insulted that they name "Jesus" as the one who so casually approves of everything they do. I feel like "No, Jesus is NOT okay with that....or NO, Jesus does not interact with the world that way." etc. It's frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Veridicus' post='1771312' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:12 PM']But I don't want this to be a discussion of old heresies...My purpose here is to get us thinking about MODERN heresies and the implications toward the same end as those early heresies.[/quote] Do you think there are new heresies? Or that those early heresies are no longer around? Edited February 4, 2009 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1771703' date='Feb 4 2009, 01:20 AM']That's kinda what I've been coming to terms with. (sorry to end the sentence with a preposition...) To the point where sometimes when I find myself amongst people of different faith backgrounds I feel possessive and almost insulted that they name "Jesus" as the one who so casually approves of everything they do. I feel like "No, Jesus is NOT okay with that....or NO, Jesus does not interact with the world that way." etc. It's frustrating.[/quote] We are all free to believe what they want about Jesus and God. And it's usually fine to end sentences with a preposition, according to [url="http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/ending-prepositions.aspx"]GrammarGirl[/url]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1772041' date='Feb 4 2009, 04:02 PM']Do you think there are new heresies? Or that those early heresies are no longer around?[/quote] I don't think a heresy ever really goes away, they are simply recycled under new labels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1772043' date='Feb 4 2009, 03:07 PM']We are all free to believe what they want about Jesus and God.[/quote] I know we are 'free' to in the sense of free will...but at what point is believing what we want mean that we no longer believe in anything real, but instead only "what we want." "What we want" has become the idol we name Jesus. At want point does belief "in what we want" lose its substance as belief? Calling "what I want Jesus" doesn't give him any true worship or bring me into Communion with him...it just leads me into a sort of self-worship and egotism that justifies everything I do "in the name of Jesus." [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1772045' date='Feb 4 2009, 03:10 PM']I don't think a heresy ever really goes away, they are simply recycled under new labels.[/quote] I agree totally. But at how do we take a stance against these new labels for old errors when people have convinced themselves that their belief is 'new' or 'progressive' or 'modern' and so 'personal' that it is truth for them? Edited February 4, 2009 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 modernism is the synthesis of all heresies like I said, I have on very rare occasions told some people that the Jesus they claim to worship I believe is no more than an imaginary friend who extends their own views onto a cosmic stage. it takes a lot for me to come to this conclusion about anyone's "personal relationship with Jesus", but sometimes it does exist. with validly baptized Christians, it is important to most times focus on where they have connected with the true Christ because the Trinity dwells within them by virtue of their baptism and therefore it is possible for them to grow closer and closer to the real Christ (who can ultimately only be found in the communion of the Church) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1772175' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:19 PM']modernism is the synthesis of all heresies like I said, I have on very rare occasions told some people that the Jesus they claim to worship I believe is no more than an imaginary friend who extends their own views onto a cosmic stage. it takes a lot for me to come to this conclusion about anyone's "personal relationship with Jesus", but sometimes it does exist. with validly baptized Christians, it is important to most times focus on where they have connected with the true Christ because the Trinity dwells within them by virtue of their baptism and therefore it is possible for them to grow closer and closer to the real Christ (who can ultimately only be found in the communion of the Church)[/quote] What about the unbaptised generic ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 depending upon their views of Christ, their Christ may be nothing more than an imaginary friend to them who permits abortion, gay marriage, thinks all religions are ok, et cetera et cetera... obviously try to find the common parts of anyone's belief in Jesus... but at a certain point when it's abstracted that much one begins to question if they are connected to the same person. imagine you had a close friend that you knew really well, and you met someone else who claimed to know that person very well except half to most of what they said about that person was pretty much the opposite of how that person really was... to what extent are you going to really say "oh, well at least this person partially knows my friend" and to what extent do you wonder if the person has any relationship with your friend at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1772635' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:07 AM']depending upon their views of Christ, their Christ may be nothing more than an imaginary friend to them who permits abortion, gay marriage, thinks all religions are ok, et cetera et cetera... obviously try to find the common parts of anyone's belief in Jesus... but at a certain point when it's abstracted that much one begins to question if they are connected to the same person. imagine you had a close friend that you knew really well, and you met someone else who claimed to know that person very well except half to most of what they said about that person was pretty much the opposite of how that person really was... to what extent are you going to really say "oh, well at least this person partially knows my friend" and to what extent do you wonder if the person has any relationship with your friend at all?[/quote] That covers just about every generic christian I know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 so to that extent, they do not encounter the real Christ; instead, they encounter a Christ whom they have invented. this is why Christ said to His apostles "he who rejects you rejects me"; those who reject the Church have rejected Christ in a huge way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772145' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:44 PM']I know we are 'free' to in the sense of free will...but at what point is believing what we want mean that we no longer believe in anything real, but instead only "what we want." "What we want" has become the idol we name Jesus. At want point does belief "in what we want" lose its substance as belief? Calling "what I want Jesus" doesn't give him any true worship or bring me into Communion with him...it just leads me into a sort of self-worship and egotism that justifies everything I do "in the name of Jesus."[/quote] I don't know... likewise, what about those who objectively believe everything the Catholic Church teaches about Jesus, but don't offer the spiritual worship and sacrifice of their own bodies and lives at Mass or elsewhere in life? Can you say that's more profitable than a person who is sincerely seeking, but hasn't yet found the Truth about Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1772759' date='Feb 5 2009, 02:34 AM']so to that extent, they do not encounter the real Christ; instead, they encounter a Christ whom they have invented. this is why Christ said to His apostles "he who rejects you rejects me"; those who reject the Church have rejected Christ in a huge way.[/quote] THe sad part is when you get to my age and you see their chlidren haven't been baptised or taught any real teaching about God. You hope at least nothing happens to them before they can grow up and have a chance to hear about the faith and get baptised on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1772898' date='Feb 5 2009, 10:09 AM']I don't know... likewise, what about those who objectively believe everything the Catholic Church teaches about Jesus, but don't offer the spiritual worship and sacrifice of their own bodies and lives at Mass or elsewhere in life? Can you say that's more profitable than a person who is sincerely seeking, but hasn't yet found the Truth about Christ?[/quote] How are you defining "spiritual worship and sacrifice" and how would you know whether another person was doing it or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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