Idolatry Toward God

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1772937' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:13 PM']How are you defining "spiritual worship and sacrifice" and how would you know whether another person was doing it or not?[/quote]

During the Sacrifice of the Mass, we offer up ourselves along with the bread and wine that the priest consecrates. And throughout the week we should offer every day with everything we have to God. Most of all, God wants our hearts to be broken before him. That's the ultimate spiritual sacrifice. And we don't really know... we can see the fruit of other believers, but obviously God sees our hearts.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1773034' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:34 PM']During the Sacrifice of the Mass, we offer up ourselves along with the bread and wine that the priest consecrates. And throughout the week we should offer every day with everything we have to God. Most of all, God wants our hearts to be broken before him. That's the ultimate spiritual sacrifice. And we don't really know... we can see the fruit of other believers, but obviously God sees our hearts.[/quote]
God only wants our heart broken so He can replace it with His own. Its a first step, not an endpoint.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773059' date='Feb 5 2009, 02:05 PM']God only wants our heart broken so He can replace it with His own. Its a first step, not an endpoint.[/quote]

That's the whole point of Christianity... on a basic level.

The point is a person could offer the right worship to Christ in an objective sense, but if he remains unrepentant, it's worthless.

"The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." -Psalm 51:17

Edited February 5, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1773173' date='Feb 5 2009, 04:47 PM']That's the whole point of Christianity... on a basic level.

The point is a person could offer the right worship to Christ in an objective sense, but if he remains unrepentant, it's worthless.

"The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." -Psalm 51:17[/quote]
How do you define "right" worship?

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

One good way I have heard it said is this.
We are limited: We need the sacraments as God has given and ordained them in the revelation of Jesus Christ through his Church.
God is not limited: How can the lack of sacraments in someone's life limit the act of God in whatever way God wills? I do not go so far to limit God's act therefore.

I think the problem is this. We can, and we should as a Church affirm and precisely define the way God acts in the Church. We can validate this with the tradition, the theology, the Scriptures, etc. We can write a catechism, and a code of canon law, to clarify those issues. But we can only, practically talk about how we know for certain how the Spirit works and acts through the Church.

The problem is, when we start talking about God outside the Church, because we cannot have the capacity to define how God works for the salvation of those outside of the Church. I have had my life altered for the better by people who do not go to Church, and gotten closer to God, because of people who ARE NOT CATHOLIC. Augustine says Cicero, Plato, and eventually Ambrose opened his mind to God. How can we be so arrogant to claim that God does not work outside of the Church? How can we be so arrogant to start making claims on how he does?

Idolatry happens when we, individually begin limiting God too.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773194' date='Feb 5 2009, 05:20 PM']How do you define "right" worship?[/quote]

What Veridicus started this thread about... right worship is in truth and love. That Mass, obviously, is the highest form of true worship, but there are many ways beyond the Mass of offering right worship.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1773266' date='Feb 5 2009, 07:18 PM']What Veridicus started this thread about... right worship is in truth and love. That Mass, obviously, is the highest form of true worship, but there are many ways beyond the Mass of offering right worship.[/quote]
I would not call any activities outside of Mass true worship, that is reserved to the Mass.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773322' date='Feb 5 2009, 05:27 PM']I would not call any activities outside of Mass true worship, that is reserved to the Mass.[/quote]
This has already been discussed in another thread on the Debate Table:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=89365"][u]Which is more Important?[/u][/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1773360' date='Feb 5 2009, 09:58 PM']This has already been discussed in another thread on the Debate Table:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=89365"][u]Which is more Important?[/u][/url][/quote]
I thought this was heading in that direction. I still think the only right worship is the Mass.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773535' date='Feb 5 2009, 09:23 PM']I thought this was heading in that direction. I still think the only right worship is the Mass.[/quote]
The Divine Liturgy (or Mass), as the anamnesis of Christ's Paschal Mystery, is the source, summit, and foundation of the Christian life. Thus, I stand by what I said in my last post in the thread entitled "Which is more Important":

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1759282' date='Jan 23 2009, 10:35 AM'][quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1759206' date='Jan 23 2009, 07:48 AM']Maybe I'm the one who's wrong to expect a connection between orthodox liturgy and radical social action. Why aren't the same priests who take care to incense the Gospels and the altar taking care to challenge me to a deeper relationship with God and service to those in need?[/quote]
I haven't seen anyone in this thread deny that there is a connection between the liturgy and works of grace within Christian society, but the question asked by the original poster was about which is more important. The answer to that question is the liturgy, because the liturgy -- as the source and summit of the Christian life -- is the foundation of all else. The liturgy is the [i]anamnesis[/i] of Christ's paschal mystery, His resurrection, His ascension, and His glorious second coming, and so it is through this liturgical commemoration that we experience Christ's saving action and receive His divine energy, which empowers us to live a life of virtue in service to God (first and foremost) and to our fellow man.

Ultimately, it is by the [i]kenosis[/i] (self-emptying) of the eternal Logos in the incarnation that man's [i]theosis[/i] (deification) is achieved, and through [i]theosis[/i] (deification) humanity experiences its own [i]kenosis[/i] (self-emptying), and all of this is made possible through the liturgy and the sacramental graces it provides.
[/quote]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773322' date='Feb 5 2009, 08:27 PM']I would not call any activities outside of Mass true worship, that is reserved to the Mass.[/quote]

Fine, but I do consider it worship. We are Catholics in everything we do and everywhere we go, not just as Mass on Sunday. And every action, even if indirectly, is an act of worship to someone or something, either outside of myself or to myself. Going to Mass faithfully and missing the point (i.e. giving ourselves in the world, to our family, employer, neighbor, etc.) just makes a mockery of Christ.

Edited February 6, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1773767' date='Feb 6 2009, 10:04 AM']Fine, but I do consider it worship. We are Catholics in everything we do and everywhere we go, not just as Mass on Sunday. And every action, even if indirectly, is an act of worship to someone or something, either outside of myself or to myself. Going to Mass faithfully and missing the point (i.e. giving ourselves in the world, to our family, employer, neighbor, etc.) just makes a mockery of Christ.[/quote]
If you want to use that as your personal definiton, thats up to you, but the proper term always refers only to GOd or the saints. If given to God it is adoration, if for the saints its veneration. It is not a job description for the spiritual or corporal works of mercy. Using it that why seem to me to open the way for judgementalism of whether other people are "worshipping" correctly. That is between God, your confessor, and you.

[LouisvilleFan]

We're talking past each other. You're talking about direct, one-on-one worship of God and I'm thinking more inclusively about everything else, which should be directly affected by our worship. Social action and works of mercy are not options we can pick up at the Catholic Cafeteria if we like them. We participate in them because our love for God and worship of him changes our hearts and compels us to repent and reform our entire lives in a catholic way.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1773873' date='Feb 6 2009, 01:21 PM']We're talking past each other. You're talking about direct, one-on-one worship of God and I'm thinking more inclusively about everything else, which should be directly affected by our worship. Social action and works of mercy are not options we can pick up at the Catholic Cafeteria if we like them. We participate in them because our love for God and worship of him changes our hearts and compels us to repent and reform our entire lives in a catholic way.[/quote]
Well I'm using the word within the parameters of its actual meaning , so I guess that might make a difference.
What is affected by our worship is not the [b]same [/b]as worship. We worship God thru the Mass, we live this out thru doing corporal and spiritual works of mercy. We are called to do both.
The danger of stretching a word so broadly that it no longer retains its original meaning only leads to confusion of thought and action. The term worship could applied so broadly that any action might be covered - is visiting the sick then "worship"? No, not at all in the catholic sense of the term. And again this might lead to an unconscious judgmentalism. If you don't see someone out helping the poor you could wrongly think they are not "worshipping" God properly, when they might spending hours a day praying for the repose of souls. One also might not give enough value to those enclosed priests - brothers - nuns who simply spend their lives praying for the rest of us, simply because they are not "active".

I do understand where you are coming from, but redefining a catholic term to do it is not the way to go .

[Veridicus]

What is the best way to gently help others recognize that the Jesus they think of when they 'worship' (not interested in debating the concept of worship...) is more a reflection of their own worldly views than a true EXTERNAL source of grace that transforms them from within? The 'others' here are all proclaimed Christians (tepid Catholics and more traditional protestant sects through Non-denoms...and no Apotheon I didn't forget the Byzantines, but I don't personally know any so I wouldn't know be able to challenge them into a deeper faith at all anyway...) Does it start with asking them about their prayer life (if it exists)? Asking them to reflect on how their views of Jesus stack up to scripture? How do you help others enter into a more profound and honest relationship with the true person of Jesus Christ?

Beyond the obvious necessity of prayer, how do we as practicing catholics (of any rite) try to develop a more genuine worship and view of Jesus in our own lives? How can I evaluate in my own views of the Lord those things which I have 'added' from my own experiences rather than from the Bible or Church teaching on who he is? I feel like the more deeply I can recognize Christ away from my own expectations and limited views of reality, the more truthfully I can offer him worship and align myself to him in prayer.

And then the more honestly I can challenge others and hopefully lead them into a more true view of their Lord and the way he interacts with the world through his Church and her Sacraments.

Thank you all for your reflections on this. It helps me to read your thoughts.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Veridicus