The Turning Tide: The Sspx

[Aloysius]

A few points to note about how the Society of St. Pius X seems on the fast track for a complete reunification.

[b]Anti-Semitism[/b]
All controversial comments regarding the Jews have been removed from the SSPX website (we do not link to them on phatmass until such a time as they are regularized, but it is the first link in a google search for "sspx")

[b]The +Williamson Affair[/b]
[quote]Asked why he had not apologized for his comments, Williamson told Germany's Spiegel magazine: "If I should discover that I have been at fault, then I will do so."

...

"I ask everyone to believe me that I did not deliberately say something false. I was, on the basis of my research in the 1980s, convinced of the accuracy of my comments," he told the weekly in an interview released on Saturday.

"Now I must examine everything again and look at the evidence," he added.

British-born Williamson apologized to the pope late last month for the "unnecessary distress and problems" he caused him. But he did not recant or take back the Holocaust comments, which he called "imprudent."
[url="http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/williamson-if-i-find-i-was-wrong-i-will.html"]http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/w...ong-i-will.html[/url][/quote]
As I said before, the man is intellectually honest (which is why he won't simply lie about his position to appease the nuremburg-parade-like mobs calling for his head) but fell into a wrong idea and was convinced by it. The taboo surrounding that wrong idea (which keeps much direct and honest debunking of it) did not help the matter of him not finding good arguments to get him the right idea. Let's pray he finds the better sources this time.

say what you will about the crazy ideas he's fallen into, but you will scarce find a more honest bishop than +Richard Williamson in the whole Catholic Church.

[b]Father Abrahamowicz Expelled[/b]
This priest of the SSPX was expelled not simply for denying the holocaust, but for speaking in a way that sounded sedevacantist (calling the Pope "Joseph Ratzinger") and being extremely ungrateful and polemical about the lifting of the excommunications. The tone of the SSPX is grateful, hopeful, and positive.
[url="http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/news-agencies-sspx-expels-father.html"]http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/n...els-father.html[/url]

[b]The Four Bishops' grateful and reconciliatory attitude[/b]
[url="http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/four-sspx-bishops-send-joint-letter-to.html"]http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/f...-letter-to.html[/url]

Pray, pray, pray... unity is on the way! As Cardinal Hoyos said, there remain very few difficulties.

[Ziggamafu]

I am thrilled over this happening. Even more thrilled that it happens while the Traditional Anglican Communion is making moves in the same direction...makes me think there are some big heavenly plans brewing in the near future. Which, honestly, makes me a bit apprehensive about any great trials coming our way.

I'll also be happy when Fisheaters (a traditionalist website) gets the green light from Catholic Culture. Fisheaters has some of the best content I have every seen on a Catholic resource site (or at least some of the most difficult to find elsewhere) and the only reason they have a red light is because they link to SSPX - even though they don't actually support them - and because a few of the forum members are rad-trads (although that position is not endorsed by the webmasters and a warning is provided before entering the forum).

[Aloysius]

I don't really support Catholic Culture's rating systems at all and think they dealt with fisheaters absolutely wrongly; heck, they once threatened phatmass's status over some links in the Defense Directory. I don't put any stock at all in CC's rating systems; they're not done professionally or accurately at all... but that's neither here nor there.

anyway, I don't know where all the controversial stuff on the SSPX's site was, but I hope some of those who were citing various things on it will chime in here with whether or not it's still up. I know all the potentially anti-semitic stuff is gone at least.

[Apotheoun]

That the holocaust is becoming a dogma for the Roman Church is disturbing.

[Aloysius]

It is disturbing; but I must say I appreciate Bishop Williamson's response to that issue. If it were a matter of doctrine he could simply submit to Rome's authority; however, he is simply re-evaluating the evidence in an intellectually honest way.

Abrahamowicz was not expelled for holocaust denial, but for speaking about the Pope in a way that seemed sedevacantist (calling him "Joseph Ratzinger"); I wonder if he wasn't ommitting the "una cum" from his masses.. Lefebvre never had any tolerence for such priests and clearly nor does Fellay. [url="http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/reaching-logical-end-liberal.html"](though apparently they're welcome in the dioceses of France if they're on the other side)[/url]

I find Rome's capitulation to the Nuremburg-parade-like fury against +Williamson disturbing as well. But the SSPX's response has actually been quite respectable on the part of all four of the bishops. The stuff removed from the SSPX site had nothing to do with the holocaust (that was never on the site) but had more to do with conspiracy theories related to "the Jews"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1775473' date='Feb 7 2009, 08:54 PM']It is disturbing; but I must say I appreciate Bishop Williamson's response to that issue. If it were a matter of doctrine he could simply submit to Rome's authority; however, he is simply re-evaluating the evidence in an intellectually honest way.[/quote]
I agree. He really has no reason to apologize for his views on a general historical event, but he is free to apologize for the problems his comments have caused the pope.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1775473' date='Feb 7 2009, 08:54 PM']Abrahamowicz was not expelled for holocaust denial, but for speaking about the Pope in a way that seemed sedevacantist (calling him "Joseph Ratzinger"); I wonder if he wasn't ommitting the "una cum" from his masses.. Lefebvre never had any tolerence for such priests and clearly nor does Fellay.[/quote]
Both the Vatican and the SSPX should make it absolutely clear that Fr. Abrahamowicz' views on the holocaust are irrelevant, and were not the reason for his expulsion; otherwise the false impression is given that the holocaust is a new point of dogma for the Roman Church.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1775473' date='Feb 7 2009, 08:54 PM']I find Rome's capitulation to the Nuremburg-parade-like fury against +Williamson disturbing as well. But the SSPX's response has actually been quite respectable on the part of all four of the bishops. The stuff removed from the SSPX site had nothing to do with the holocaust (that was never on the site) but had more to do with conspiracy theories related to "the Jews"[/quote]
I too am disturbed by the Vatican's recent actions on this issue. Rabbinic Judaism is not a valid way of salvation, and it would be terrible if the Vatican acted in a manner that promoted that erroneous viewpoint.

As I see it, Bishop Williamson's views (or any other man's views for that matter) on the holocaust, the Turkish genocide against the Armenians, the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, and the American Revolution, etc., are irrelevant when it comes to his standing within the Catholic Church. I may find Bishop Williamson's views on any number of issues related to general history to be foolish, but that does not mean that he is not fit to be a bishop, or that he must be excluded from being in communion with the Catholic Church.

There is something terribly wrong in the Church when a man who has performed "gay marriages" is made the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90400"][u]Administrator of a diocese[/u][/url], while another man who holds views (however odd they may be) on an event of general history that is completely unrelated to Catholic doctrine is under pressure to recant.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Tinkerlina]

I'm glad to hear that Bishop Williamson is going to try to learn the truth regarding the Holocaust. Hopefully he will come to realize the scale of genocide that occured. I'm also glad to hear that the SSPX took all of that anti-semitic rambilng off of their webiste. It does look like they are making a true effort to "reign themselves in" and become closer to full communion with the Church. I hope they continue to take positive steps. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1775481' date='Feb 7 2009, 09:12 PM']I'm glad to hear that Bishop Williamson is going to try to learn the truth regarding the Holocaust.[/quote]
No surprise there.

[Aloysius]

I agree, Apo, though I am personally glad at the possibility that +Williamson will not choose this historical opinion as the hill to die on. Rome's ultimatum that he recant his historical opinion or else he cannot be a prelate is unthinkably inappropriate (though if it is in the same sense as +Fellay's comment that +Williamson will be unable to minister to the people of Europe properly due to this opinion which is illegal and he could be prosecuted for, then that sentiment is agreeable; ie, we only want bishops in the Society who can adequately minister to the whole society) IMHO.

IN any event, I am utterly impressed with the moral charecter of Bishop Williamson in the face of all this. He has not merely bowed down to political correctness, but he has also not dug his heels in in stubbornness. The good Bishop may have many crazy views, but he can never be accused of being too prideful or too stubborn.

[HisChildForever]

I agree, this is terrific.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1775482' date='Feb 7 2009, 11:13 PM']No surprise there.[/quote]

I am beginning to wonder if Tink has given you her itinerary, as you seem to follow her around the forum.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1775476' date='Feb 8 2009, 12:03 AM']I agree. He really has no reason to apologize for his views on a general historical event, but he is free to apologize for the problems his comments have caused the pope.


Both the Vatican and the SSPX should make it absolutely clear that Fr. Abrahamowicz' views on the holocaust are irrelevant, and were not the reason for his expulsion; otherwise the false impression is given that the holocaust is a new point of dogma for the Roman Church.


I too am disturbed by the Vatican's recent actions on this issue. Rabbinic Judaism is not a valid way of salvation, and it would be terrible if the Vatican acted in a manner that promoted that erroneous viewpoint.

As I see it, Bishop Williamson's views (or any other man's views for that matter) on the holocaust, the Turkish genocide against the Armenians, the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, and the American Revolution, etc., are irrelevant when it comes to his standing within the Catholic Church. I may find Bishop Williamson's views on any number of issues related to general history to be foolish, but that does not mean that he is not fit to be a bishop, or that he must be excluded from being in communion with the Catholic Church.

There is something terribly wrong in the Church when a man who has performed "gay marriages" is made the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90400"][u]Administrator of a diocese[/u][/url], while another man who holds a views (however odd they may be) on an event of general history that is completely unrelated to Catholic doctrine is under pressure to recant.[/quote]


I find his historical views asinine, but I think you have hit it spot on. As best I can figure his views on the Holocaust are not motiveted by anti-semitism and are just in general totally irrelivent.

I just don't understand why this is such a big deal.

Newsweek brought in Hitchens to right an article (talk about the bottom of the barrel) and I suppose he's presented the most coherant objection (that should be seen as a term highly relivent to the other objections)

[url="http://www.newsweek.com/id/182574"]http://www.newsweek.com/id/182574[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1775487' date='Feb 7 2009, 09:19 PM']I am beginning to wonder if Tink has given you her itinerary, as you seem to follow her around the forum.[/quote]
It's not that big a forum.

That said, why do you keep following me around.

[Aloysius]

... it seems to me that it is similar topics that are attracting both posters...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1775485' date='Feb 7 2009, 09:19 PM']I agree, Apo, though I am personally glad at the possibility that +Williamson will not choose this historical opinion as the hill to die on.[/quote]
I hope he does, because it sets a bad precedence.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1775489' date='Feb 7 2009, 11:20 PM']That said, why do you keep following me around.[/quote]

Because I am madly in love with you.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1775490' date='Feb 7 2009, 11:21 PM']... it seems to me that it is similar topics that are attracting both posters...[/quote]

Thanks for the tip.