Specific Abuses In Mass?

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1776808' date='Feb 9 2009, 07:26 PM']+J.M.J.+
any time we have baptisms at Mass - the second reading is skipped.
any time we have anointing of the sick at Mass - the second reading is skipped.
any time we do anything 'extra' - the second reading is skipped.

what i infer from this is that the second reading is not really important, and is expendable.[/quote]

Which kind of flies in the face of "Oh, the Novus Ordo is superior to the Extraordinary Form because there's more Scripture in it!" which is what I often hear.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1776785' date='Feb 9 2009, 12:43 PM']During freshmen year of high school at a school mass the priest announced just before distrubuting communion that according to the rules of the church that a song was to be played with reverence for the eucharist. So a lovely reverent one was played and sung by the choir, the problem was that the song was really speady, and it was supposed to be a slower and more reflective song but I have never heard a song at mass sped up so quickly before. Then a contemporary rock christian song was immediately played that didn't seem to have anything to do with the eucharist. I went up to communion furious at what was going on.

I remember during those high school masses that hardly anyone in the audience sang, hardly anyone. Sometimes the choir seemed to be in concert mode, though sometimes we actually were encouraged to sing, unfortunately few did.

By the way, are we supposed to kneel during the consecration? We were in bleachers or folding chairs we stood up and bowed when the priest knelt. I know of one parish were the church just has folding chairs, which they say are just temporary but they've been around for like fourteen years. They don't kneel. One girl at my college goes to a parish where there are some kneelers but they don't use them because not everyone has them. Their bishop isn't happy with that! Honestly, why they can't just make more kneelers so that everyone is "equal" and can kneel is beyond me. Correct me if I'm wrong.[/quote]

Um, we had a parish built like that and the new Bishop said either buy kneelers or kneel on the floor - your choice.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1776841' date='Feb 9 2009, 11:15 AM']Well definitely. The Liturgy is supposed to communicated doctrine right? Wasn't there something at the Council of Florence about how the epistles were "soooooo first century" and expendible? And then again at the Council of Trent where it was decided that "Paul's run-on sentences, overuse of semicolons, and at times commanding tone were distasteful to modern sentiments and thus should be avoided when possible within the Liturgy." I'll have to reference those quotes for you... [/quote]
oh, please do!

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1776842' date='Feb 9 2009, 11:16 AM']Which kind of flies in the face of "Oh, the Novus Ordo is superior to the Extraordinary Form because there's more Scripture in it!" which is what I often hear.[/quote]
yup. they conveniently forget about skipping second readings when they're bashing the EF though.

[RemnantRules]

Blessed Be God!!!

There was a question above about kneeling and standing. At our church before we had kneelers we all stood, and it is deemed a respectful way of worship during the consecration, HOWEVER, the best form of respect is to kneel if you are able to.

I've seen little things here and there, and the more I've listened to Cardinal Arinze, and Our Holy Father the more I've seen. Dress for people to me is one of the biggest insults to me. I've been as guilty as the next person about proper dress, but I've learned from my mistakes, and to see the lack of proper dress on men and women horrifies me sometimes.

It made me laugh/think a little when a while back when North Western Wildcats lacrosse team went to see the President and people were in an uproar with a girl who wore flip flops to see him. If people get that twisted over that, why not get upset when half the congregation is in flip flops, shorts, and other dress.

I remember a couple of weeks back I was speaking with a gentleman about the priest's homily and how great it was, and he made the comment about how he wished he had him talk and "skip that bread and wine thing..." I just gave this look . Sometimes you have to just let things go when it deals with that. I told him I wouldn't go that far, but I understood what he was trying to get at. I told him that if people weren't in such a rush to hurry home to do whatever, then he could go on longer instead of squeezing the most important event of the week into just an hour.

Finally, about the priest and confronting him, there is nothing wrong with correcting a priest. Yes, they must ALWAYS be respected, and give them their proper honor, but they are also men, and are not all perfect. I have had to correct a former priest before, and for me I had sent him an email with the proper teaching attached to the e-mail, but each circumstance is different, and I know you will handle it the best.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='RemnantRules' post='1776858' date='Feb 9 2009, 02:29 PM']HOWEVER, the best form of respect is to kneel if you are able to.[/quote]
In the Western tradition, anyway. (Beat you to it, Apo! )
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1776838' date='Feb 9 2009, 02:13 PM']O didn't say correct him, just go in all confused and ask him when it was changed from what you have in your hand. Ask him if its something your bishop decided.
Its not a lie to say your confused about it, is it? [/quote]
I suppose that's a good point. Where can I find the reference?

[Ziggamafu]

I've read that ICEL's revision of the Mass may include the removal of kneeling for all but the actual consecration. Anyone else hear this? I would have to search for the reference...

Personally, although of course certain actions are more or less becoming of the dignity of the Mass, it seems like much of it is a matter of relative perspectives from various times and cultures. I expect the forms of celebration to be dynamic, given the local bishop's authority to "tweak" the rubrics here and there.

lol...think of it this way: you can't make progress without learning from mistakes, so given the liturgical experiences gained since the 60's we should soon be entering into an era of unparalleled liturgical awesomeness. ;-)

[Slappo]

[quote name='RemnantRules' post='1776858' date='Feb 9 2009, 11:29 AM']Blessed Be God!!!

There was a question above about kneeling and standing. At our church before we had kneelers we all stood, and it is deemed a respectful way of worship during the consecration, HOWEVER, the best form of respect is to kneel if you are able to.[/quote]

Ability to kneel is not hindered by lack of kneelers and if there is a suitable amount of room in front of you to kneel, if you are physically able to, it is the proper position. The elderly, those with injuries etc would all be exceptions. Also extreme discomfort would be an exception, but kneeling on a hard floor as say... a 25 year old for a few minutes is not considered extreme discomfort for the normal person (I.E didn't have knee surgery or something).

Kneeling is a penitential posture, so if there is mild discomfort, that is not a bad thing.

In Christ,
Marcus

[Veridicus]

I do NOT MISS high school gym masses....

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1776599' date='Feb 8 2009, 10:19 PM']Here's something of an abuse.
After I was received into the church, I took up the practice of genuflecting before I received communion.
Months later, in the confessional, the priest told me that I wasn't to do that any more.
(Even though the USCCB says I can...I don't want to argue with him though. He is the priest after all.) It's really hard for me not to do it. [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
well, the GIRM says that you should bow your head, but i don't remember which document said that those who genuflect are not to be denied the Eucharist.

edit, from [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect4"]the GIRM[/url]:
[quote]160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.[/quote]

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
a great source concerning abuses and how to handle them with your priest/bishop is [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instruction.pdf"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url] (pdf file).
[quote]184. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 [b]It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop.[/b] This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.[/quote]

concerning the homily:
[quote]67. [b]Particular care is to be taken so that the homily is firmly based upon the mysteries of salvation, expounding the mysteries of the Faith and the norms of Christian life from the biblical readings and liturgical texts throughout the course of the liturgical year and providing commentary on the texts of the Ordinary or the Proper of the Mass, or of some other Rite of the Church.[/b]147 It is clear that all interpretations of Sacred Scripture are to be referred back to Christ himself as the one upon whom the entire economy of salvation hinges, though this should be done in light of the specific context of the liturgical celebration. In the homily to be given, care is to be taken so that the light of Christ may shine upon life’s events. Even so, this is to be done so as not to obscure the true and unadulterated word of God: for instance, treating only of politics or profane subjects, or drawing upon notions derived from contemporary pseudo-religious currents as a source.148[/quote]

receiving on the tongue or kneeling:
[quote]91. In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them.”177 Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, [b]that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing[/b].

92. Although each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice,178 if any communicant should wish to receive the Sacrament in the hand, in areas where the Bishops’ Conference with the recognitio of the Apostolic See has given permission, the sacred host is to be administered to him or her. However, special care should be taken to ensure that the host is consumed by the communicant in the presence of the minister, so that no one goes away carrying the Eucharistic species in his hand. If there is a risk of profanation, then Holy Communion should not be given in the hand to the faithful.179[/quote]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1776897' date='Feb 9 2009, 03:04 PM']+J.M.J.+
a great source concerning abuses and how to handle them with your priest/bishop is [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instruction.pdf"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url] (pdf file).


concerning the homily:


receiving on the tongue or kneeling:[/quote]
Thanks Lil Red.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
no problem

[puellapaschalis]

How exactly do we define "abuse" here? Is it something explicit, where we can open the GIRM and point to a paragraph and say, "This is not how it's supposed to happen, folks," or does it also include those things which aren't so easily refuted?

I mean, I absolutely despise the way my parish priest can offer a [i]Sunday Mass[/i], with both readings before the Gospel, in under half an hour. But I don't know that it's ever been written down anywhere that that shouldn't happen.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1776930' date='Feb 9 2009, 12:48 PM']How exactly do we define "abuse" here? Is it something explicit, where we can open the GIRM and point to a paragraph and say, "This is not how it's supposed to happen, folks," or does it also include those things which aren't so easily refuted?

I mean, I absolutely despise the way my parish priest can offer a [i]Sunday Mass[/i], with both readings before the Gospel, in under half an hour. But I don't know that it's ever been written down anywhere that that shouldn't happen.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
from RS:
[quote]2. GRAVE MATTERS

173. Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common
teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered
among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nos. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM"]Code of Canon Law[/url], and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.


3. OTHER ABUSES

174. Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other
matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

175. [b]The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition.[/b] Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected according to the norm of law.[/quote]

[havok579257]

speaking about the church i went to with no wine, also a guest priest performed mass today. he gave a short homily and they talked about catholic relief services(which i have no issue with) but then when he was done the whole church gave a round of applause. i thoght that, that was very weird.