Average American

[lost_in_this_world]

I like to think that I am educated and I watch the news and try to understand the stimulus bill and all this political stuff and it just goes right over my head. Why on earth can't things be explained for everyone to understand? don't we have some right to know? it just makes me think that they are really hiding a lot of stuff if they word things so that the average American cant understand what they are saying. shady.

[Hassan]

[quote name='lost_in_this_world' post='1788247' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:53 PM']I like to think that I am educated and I watch the news and try to understand the stimulus bill and all this political stuff and it just goes right over my head. Why on earth can't things be explained for everyone to understand? don't we have some right to know? it just makes me think that they are really hiding a lot of stuff if they word things so that the average American cant understand what they are saying. shady.[/quote]


I guess this is where personal responsibility comes in. Everything Obama does is not a conspiracy, this really is an extraordionairly complex crisis. If you can't understand it try to learn more about Economics. That's what I'm doing seeing as I'm pretty ignorant about it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0764557262/ref=s9_sdps_c2_s1_p14_t1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0P4NW1DPASN675G61BBY&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463383371&pf_rd_i=507846"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076455726...;pf_rd_i=507846[/url]


and


[url="http://www.oswego.edu/~economic/newbooks.htm"]http://www.oswego.edu/~economic/newbooks.htm[/url]

[CatherineM]

There are also things that are just going to be above the average person's head. That's why we have to elect people who will appoint the folks that do understand it to positions in charge of the stuff the rest of us don't understand.

[Saint Therese]

The truth is they don't want you to know what's going on. Anyone who manages their household finances well has the sense to know that you can't improve your financial situation by increasing your spending. They want you to think you can't understand.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1788341' date='Feb 22 2009, 03:38 PM']The truth is they don't want you to know what's going on. Anyone who manages their household finances well has the sense to know that you can't improve your financial situation by increasing your spending. They want you to think you can't understand.[/quote]

home economics and the economics of a nation are two very different things

[Saint Therese]

You prove my point.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1788451' date='Feb 22 2009, 05:34 PM']You prove my point.[/quote]

How?

[kafka]

Here is my little rant. I usually dont post here at politicos, and I am by no means an economist, yet I do have a philosophical and scientific bent, and I'd like you to know some of my 'uneducated' reflections:

I dont always agree with Saint Therese (no offense but sometimes you tend to oversimplify) yet I sort of agree with what I think she is getting at. Economics is (and should) basically be the supply and movement and consumption of the basic necessities of life such as food, clothing, housing, transportation, recreation, etc. which supports the well-being of men. There should be basic principles or truths governing economics which would be just as valid for a household as well as a nation for they are both societal units, though obviously their economies are concretized in different ways.

What has happened in this country and in the wealthy global communities is an ultra-trend toward an abandonment of basic principles, in favor of a massive and complex artificial shell of pseudo-economy lacking any sort of substance to fall back on (again I speak in generalities) and full of absurdities, and useless items, and the list could go on. Not to mention the modern economy is fueled by greed, hatred, utilitarianism, power, pragmatism. The modern economy is like a self-contained system undergoing continual purposeless revolutions. Shifting trillions of dollars in funds around is not going to heal a lack of principles and virtues.

That may seem like a gross simplication, and it probably is, but take the issue of food for example. Case in point, let say hypothetically there were a world-wide food shortage (aka famine). The poorer and simple economic nations would fair better than the wealthy and complex economic nations. Why? Simply because people in the poorer nations tend to grow their own food, or rely on locally grown food, whereas the food of the wealthy nations is highly processed and goes through an absurdly complex chain of farmer to wholesale to retail, etc. During a famine or economic collapse companies in wealthier nations would go out of business, prices for food would inflate because of monies owed to keep the complex chain going, etc.

So we are talking about a major flaw in one of the most important aspects of economy namely food, sustaining a nation. What else can I possibly say, others than dont start the revolution without me (o.k. that was a joke).

Anyhow, that is about as far as my economic understanding can carry me.

Edited February 22, 2009 by kafka

[CatherineM]

We are too busy razing all our best farm land to build McMansions in soulless suburbs. I've got three urban share croppers who are interested in planting vegetables on the front lawn of our condo complex next spring. Seriously considering it.

[fides quarens intellectum]

This thread is case in point for the OP.

The media assume Americans don't have the attention span to understand things. Edited February 24, 2009 by fides quarens intellectum

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='lost_in_this_world' post='1788247' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:53 PM']I like to think that I am educated and I watch the news and try to understand the stimulus bill and all this political stuff and it just goes right over my head. Why on earth can't things be explained for everyone to understand? don't we have some right to know? it just makes me think that they are really hiding a lot of stuff if they word things so that the average American cant understand what they are saying. shady.[/quote]

It's government stimulus, because that is the priority of the government. That's why it's all going to teacher's unions, state governments, and government projects, and government depts.

It's a massive transfer of wealth. Note that, [url="http://loungedaddy.us/?p=43"]in the 2006 the top 1% of all income earners were paying 40% into the income tax system. The top 10% pay 71%, and the top 50% pay 97% of all taxes. The bottom 50% pays less than 3% of all income taxes paid[/url]. With the hike in income taxes for the wealthy, expect further unbalance in this system.

But as it is, the top 50% of income earners are supporting the rest of the country.

And it's also a huge transfer of power to Washington. Everyone dependent on Washington for financial support means kisses Washington's ring. Power has moved further away from the people.

Proverbs 22:7 "The borrower is slave to the lender."

Edited February 25, 2009 by Lounge Daddy

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1788300' date='Feb 22 2009, 11:50 AM']I guess this is where personal responsibility comes in. Everything Obama does is not a conspiracy, this really is an extraordionairly complex crisis. If you can't understand it try to learn more about Economics. That's what I'm doing seeing as I'm pretty ignorant about it.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
but, to someone like me, i don't understand math or economics. i mean, my brain doesn't get it. (even when i'm not pregnant!) but i've found a couple of articles by Thomas Sowell that actually make sense to me, so i'm going to try to pick up some of his books.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
and off topic posts are moved

[dairygirl4u2c]

read articles about and from stiglitz.

trickle down is just the beginning, one idea, if that's all you know, you're sorely lacking.

there are many ways to stimulate the economy, some better than others.

the presumption is that the free market can take care of things. they have the incentive of profit driving them, to do things efficiently. republicans take this too far often to think that it's the only way to be most efficient. in theory, that's all true. but, in reality, there's always more efficient outcomes elsewhere. government can increase the efficiency sometimes. the reason the theory doesn't pan out in realty, is because of lack of information and/or irrational people, with subcomponents being transaction costs and risk that free market people don't want to take. also, personal incentives dont' always translate into better incentives to the whole, and people are sometimes irrational.

eg, government is good at doing things like build roads and do power lines, because the issue is too big for one person, and ther's too many variables. the issues extend beyond these issues though.
eg, there's a catch 22 regarding in my opinion with alternative energy. they don't make the fuel, the fuel makers, cause they don't have an infrastructure. they don't have the infrastructure cause they don't make the fuel. there's too much risk, there's too much uncertainty, a lack of information.
these are my opinion examples per the fuel thing, but the point is thee's always pareto efficient outcomes better than the free market.

now, some would argue that the government is not the one who's going to improve the efficiency of X issue. more often than not, this is true, if not for practical reasona alone, they smell of elderberries at making policy.
but in theory they can increase efficiency, and sometimes they have to.

and this all is not to mention that free market isn't always the most just system either, regardless of what's most efficient or effective.