Justifying Cafeteria Catholics

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1792077' date='Feb 26 2009, 06:59 PM']Seriously? Fine I'm done here[/quote]

No need to pout, love. I just can not for the life of me understand how you read [i]this[/i] article and made [i]that[/i] connection.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1791930' date='Feb 26 2009, 01:43 PM']We have Obama as president because of cafeteria catholics, we have clown liturgies because of cafeteria catholics, we have uneducated laity because of cafeteria catholics, we have Kennedy, Biden and Pelosi who are cafeteria catholics who are the scandal of the church.[/quote]

Never mind that John F. Kennedy is the patron saint of cafeteria Catholicism... born and raised in the "glory days" of American Catholicism.

Edited February 27, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1792043' date='Feb 26 2009, 06:32 PM']I am a little confused by this statement. It sounds like you are saying you received the Eucharist when you were a Protestant.[/quote]

You're not confused. That's exactly what I did. My justification came from Ephesians where St. Paul wrote, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all."

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1792043' date='Feb 26 2009, 06:32 PM']It is about properly catechizing them. A cafeteria Catholic is not someone who is confused and struggling with the faith, a cafeteria Catholics is an individual who knows that the Church opposes X and Y but blatantly ignores the teaching, believing their personal opinion to be in some way above the Church.[/quote]

I understand that, and I stand with the Church when it comes to the guidelines for receiving the sacraments, fasting and abstinence, etc. But I also try to look at things from the outsiders' perspective (and it helps to hear it firsthand from an outsider) and I find that our pride lets us become judgmental sooner than we welcome someone simply for showing up to Mass, or embrace them first as a friend because God made us for relationship, and it's in the context of a strong relationship that we earn the respect necessary to give that tough love. When people don't know you, they can safely ignore you.

Above all, I for one could stand to believe more in the power of prayer to change hearts. St. Monica had perseverance like none other.

Edited February 27, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[TradMom]

+Praised be Jesus Christ!

As one of my favorite monks like to say, "All is mercy and grace." I really oppose the idea of labeling others who are striving towards God. We just don't know what is happening in their soul, or what could or might be the turning point. Some of us move at a slower pace than others. I say we continue to hold the welcome mat out and serve the whole supper. Eventually, the person who loads up with desserts and treats will realize their diabetes is killing them and they will stop by the vegetable table and take a bite of that broccoli! And won't they be surprised at how good it tastes and how much better they feel?! We can continue to model our own faith and lead by example. I do believe all is mercy and grace, and I have heard my fair share of beautiful conversion stories from former "cafeteria Catholics." I thank God they kept coming back with an open heart.

Pax!

TradMom

[MissyP89]

When I was a CafeCatholic in the last few months before my reversion, I was often told of all the ways I was committing mortal sin and excommunicating myself, and would likely be going to hell.

Did it change my heart? No. Not really...if anything, it just made me angry, and resent the people that were in the Church. Now that I [i]am[/i] orthodox (praise be to God), I found myself with the shoe on my other foot, facing someone who really shouldn't have received. I said so, and that first time the person came to Mass with me was the last.

Given that, I think I am much more careful in what I say and how I say it. Sometimes--and I learned this particularly in the two years I was with BG before he joined RCIA--prayer is a better weapon than any words. They sometimes do more harm than good.

$0.02

[LouisvilleFan]

Having watched my aunt who was a "good" practicing Catholic experience the grace of conversion when practically on her deathbed by asking forgiveness for something that had happened many years ago, I've been wondering how many other conversions could occur when God touches people in their moments due to our positive witness. After all, it would be fitting since Jesus did say that laborers in the vineyard often reap from the seed sowed by others.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1792722' date='Feb 27 2009, 08:37 PM']Having watched my aunt who was a "good" practicing Catholic experience the grace of conversion when practically on her deathbed by asking forgiveness for something that had happened many years ago, I've been wondering how many other conversions could occur when God touches people in their moments due to our positive witness. After all, it would be fitting since Jesus did say that laborers in the vineyard often reap from the seed sowed by others.[/quote]
If she was a good practicing catholic then God Almighty had worked on her a long time ago. We are not evangelicals who need a St Paul moment to be faithful holy catholics.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1792314' date='Feb 27 2009, 03:45 AM']I understand that, and I stand with the Church when it comes to the guidelines for receiving the sacraments, fasting and abstinence, etc. But I also try to look at things from the outsiders' perspective (and it helps to hear it firsthand from an outsider) and I find that our pride lets us become judgmental sooner than we welcome someone simply for showing up to Mass, or embrace them first as a friend because God made us for relationship, and it's in the context of a strong relationship that we earn the respect necessary to give that tough love. When people don't know you, they can safely ignore you.[/quote]

Pride is certainly a factor, but sometimes correcting a lax Catholic is not always a matter of pride but a matter of necessity.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1792936' date='Feb 27 2009, 10:42 PM']If she was a good practicing catholic then God Almighty had worked on her a long time ago. We are not evangelicals who need a St Paul moment to be faithful holy catholics.[/quote]

Yes, God worked on her a long time ago, but the sacrament of Confession does not leave an indelible mark upon one's soul. Every person is in constant need of repentance and renewal, and every one of us is carrying stuff that we refuse to allow Christ to carry. Whatever that is, even when we finally give it over to Christ, something else of us remains to be crucified... and something else after that... and after that. This is the process of sanctification, which our beatified brothers and sisters model for us so beautifully, to prove to us that glory is attainable by sinners, through Christ alone.

In other words, I know plenty of good, faithful, practicing Catholics who aren't much better than the worst of sinners. That's why we believe salvation is possible by grace alone, not by works.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1792960' date='Feb 27 2009, 10:57 PM']Pride is certainly a factor, but sometimes correcting a lax Catholic is not always a matter of pride but a matter of necessity.[/quote]

Maybe... but if we know ourselves, we know that pride is an easy thing to slip in to. Pride is the root of all sin. If correcting someone is a matter of necessity, it must be done in the context of a strong relationship. We can ignore strangers. We do it all the time. But when a good friend speaks, we struggle to ignore them.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1793453' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:40 AM']Maybe... but if we know ourselves, we know that pride is an easy thing to slip in to. Pride is the root of all sin. If correcting someone is a matter of necessity, it must be done in the context of a strong relationship. We can ignore strangers. We do it all the time. But when a good friend speaks, we struggle to ignore them.[/quote]

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying we should ignore cafeteria Catholics who we are not on friendly terms with? (I may be mistaken.)

Edited February 28, 2009 by HisChildForever

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1793458' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:47 AM']I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying we should ignore cafeteria Catholics who we are not on friendly terms with? (I may be mistaken.)[/quote]

Depends on the situation, but if you're not on friendly terms, I don't see where you have earned the right to offer a correction on how they should live or believe. Maybe... if you are gifted at handling touchy conversations. But I can't think of any time in firsthand or secondhand experience when that's gone over well. I would bet you're just asking for more drama than progress towards holiness.

They only right answer is prayer. Invest time in prayer for these "cafeteria Catholics" you know... and trust that God will create the opportunities for witnessing to them when the time is right. Don't be surprised if he first has a few things to teach you... God has to keep us humble, after all.

Edited February 28, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1793482' date='Feb 28 2009, 04:08 AM']Depends on the situation, but if you're not on friendly terms, I don't see where you have earned the right to offer a correction on how they should live or believe. Maybe... if you are gifted at handling touchy conversations. But I can't think of any time in firsthand or secondhand experience when that's gone over well. I would bet you're just asking for more drama than progress towards holiness.[/quote]

That is pretty much where the priest comes in. Priests should factor Church teaching into their homilies while simultaneously relating this teaching to the readings. I have heard too many homilies "skim the surface." (But have also heard many a good homily that really drills doctrine into the parishioners.)

Edited February 28, 2009 by HisChildForever

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1793553' date='Feb 28 2009, 12:05 PM']That is pretty much where the priest comes in. Priests should factor Church teaching into their homilies while simultaneously relating this teaching to the readings. I have heard too many homilies "skim the surface." (But have also heard many a good homily that really drills doctrine into the parishioners.)[/quote]

Yeah, preaching is generally mediocre, but it's really interesting to find out how far we've come. The other day someone sent me this article, [url="http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5467&Itemid=48"]The Perils of Preaching[/url], and he talks about how homilies weren't a regular part of the Mass before Vatican II. That may not be everyone's experience... I wasn't alive back then, so I gotta take peoples' word for how it was But I do know a lot of older Catholics who experienced Vatican II who are totally indifferent about whether they hear a homily or if it's any good. They go to Mass for the Eucharist and everything else is just a little icing on the cake. Fortunately, preaching is a much higher priority at seminaries these days, so we have better days to look forward to in that regard!