Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 The child had Trisomy 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1795932' date='Mar 3 2009, 01:02 AM']The child had Trisomy 18[/quote] Well yeah, it does point that out in the header and the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1795932' date='Mar 2 2009, 11:02 PM']The child had Trisomy 18[/quote] Yea, so the baby had Edward's syndrome. Yea, the survival rate is quite low. That's not an excuse. No one denies that it's a hard, trying thing to go through. Nobody's saying it should be easy on the parents. Life does weird things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1795964' date='Mar 3 2009, 01:37 AM']Yea, so the baby had Edward's syndrome. Yea, the survival rate is quite low. That's not an excuse. No one denies that it's a hard, trying thing to go through. Nobody's saying it should be easy on the parents. Life does weird things.[/quote] Life doesn't do anything, genetics does cause certian events to happen. We can either pretend that a little innocent baby being struck down by a genetic defect is part of some mysterious overarching purpose that we little mortals simply cannot see and be angry at these people for advising the mother to end the pregnancy, or we can admit that through billions of years of natural selection our otherwise dynamic and fascinating genetic pool had some up wth some real monstors and sometimes the kindest thing to do is end a doomed pregnancy before the mother get's even more heart broken or the child suffers more than necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1795988' date='Mar 3 2009, 12:09 AM']Life doesn't do anything, genetics does cause certian events to happen. We can either pretend that a little innocent baby being struck down by a genetic defect is part of some mysterious overarching purpose that we little mortals simply cannot see and be angry at these people for advising the mother to end the pregnancy, or we can admit that through billions of years of natural selection our otherwise dynamic and fascinating genetic pool had some up wth some real monstors and sometimes the kindest thing to do is end a doomed pregnancy before the mother get's even more heart broken or the child suffers more than necessary.[/quote] I meant 'life' collectively. That portion wasn't intended to be scientifically accurate. Do you think that it's impossible for anything good to come out of a bad situation? Happens all the time in science, after all. Random genetic mutations ring a bell? Would you choose to subject yourself to a random genetic mutation when your species is functioning perfectly all right? Probably not, but maybe that random genetic mutation will be a slight advantage which significantly alters your gene pool over many thousands of years. That is, if you want a rational scientific argument that shows that sometimes good things can come from unintended and unwanted complications... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Which ignores this case, where the parents did NOT want to end the pregnancy, but instead go through with it. Instead of supporting them in this time, they were pressured to end the pregnancy, which I'm sure caused much more heartbreak to the suffering they were/are enduring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1796000' date='Mar 3 2009, 02:15 AM']I meant 'life' collectively. That portion wasn't intended to be scientifically accurate.[/quote] I understand what you were saying, I was contesting the teleological tone you wanted to coat this story with. I see no compelling evidence for any sort of personal God or a teleological universe in general. I suppose I get annoyed at seeing people attack those who make difficult decisions like this and face reality rather than skirt those decisions by scurrying behind some mysterious "grand purpose". [quote]Do you think that it's impossible for anything good to come out of a bad situation?[/quote] no. I don't, however, just allow every bad to occur without opposition on the hope that some good will come out of it. [quote]Happens all the time in science, after all. Random genetic mutations ring a bell? Would you choose to subject yourself to a random genetic mutation when your species is functioning perfectly all right? Probably not, but maybe that random genetic mutation will be a slight advantage which significantly alters your gene pool over many thousands of years.[/quote] genetic mutations that increase survivability get selected, I am not a geneticist, but I would be willing to bet just about anything that Trisomy 18 is not a positive genetic mutation for the species, considering it's near high, high kill rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1796016' date='Mar 3 2009, 02:22 AM']Which ignores this case, where the parents did NOT want to end the pregnancy, but instead go through with it. Instead of supporting them in this time, they were pressured to end the pregnancy, which I'm sure caused much more heartbreak to the suffering they were/are enduring.[/quote] They say that. I don't remember reading anywhere that the abortion was a forced one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1796024' date='Mar 3 2009, 02:27 AM']They say that. I don't remember reading anywhere that the abortion was a forced one.[/quote] I don't recall saying it was forced either, but, instead (and as I said in my op) pressured. When they denied the option, the staff should not have brought it up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1796022' date='Mar 3 2009, 12:25 AM']genetic mutations that increase survivability get selected, I am not a geneticist, but I would be willing to bet just about anything that Trisomy 18 is not a positive genetic mutation for the species, considering it's near high, high kill rate.[/quote] Fair enough, so tell me this: Can you look someone in the eye and tell them that survivability is [b]the only[/b] good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1796027' date='Mar 3 2009, 02:29 AM']I don't recall saying it was forced either, but, instead (and as I said in my op) pressured. When they denied the option, the staff should not have brought it up again.[/quote] I understand that, but everyone here keeps mentioning that they didn't want the abortion. I don't know how many women *want* an abortion. However ultimatly the responsibility was theirs and they made their decision. No one forced them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1796032' date='Mar 3 2009, 02:33 AM']I understand that, but everyone here keeps mentioning that they didn't want the abortion. I don't know how many women *want* an abortion. However ultimatly the responsibility was theirs and they made their decision. No one forced them.[/quote] They were again, not forced, and thankfully, they did not allow the applied pressure to take effect. My issue is more so that pressure was applied. And from a Catholic hospital, which should by it's very nature as a Catholic institution should not have even suggested such a pressure. I must admit, I was somewhat weary of this part: "Further tests revealed that the child had Trisomy 18, which a team of five doctors from the hospital informed the couple is a deadly anomaly incompatible with life." There is a VERY low survival rate with this disease, with a VERY, VERY slim chance of the affected child surviving into their teens, but the chance does still exist. It would be irresponsible if the doctors stated there was no survival rate for the child, when there actually is one. I can understand not wanting to give a false hope, but that's no excuse for saying "incompatible with life". Alas, time to head to sleep. No more responses tonight. Good night. Edited March 3, 2009 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1796031' date='Mar 3 2009, 02:32 AM']Fair enough, so tell me this: Can you look someone in the eye and tell them that survivability is [b]the only[/b] good?[/quote] when it comes to genetics, yes. The survivability of the species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1796038' date='Mar 3 2009, 12:38 AM']when it comes to genetics, yes. The survivability of the species.[/quote] We're not talking strict genetics anymore. To you, not only as an organism, but as a sentient, thinking, rational person, is your personal survivability the one and only good thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1796042' date='Mar 3 2009, 02:42 AM']We're not talking strict genetics anymore. To you, not only as an organism, but as a sentient, thinking, rational person, is your personal survivability the one and only good thing?[/quote] No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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