Bp Williamson Declaration Of Apology

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1793691' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:39 PM']I would ponder what the conditions set before him were, if they were made public?[/quote]
Bishop Williamson's views on the holocaust are irrelevant as far as it concerns his standing with the Church, just as my views on the presidency of Abraham Lincoln are irrelevant when it comes to my standing in the Church.

The Vatican has no power to request an apology from anyone on an historical issue that has no connection to the deposit of faith.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

There is a thread currently at Phatmass about "the fifth Marian dogma," which, to be frank, it is pretty clear that Pope Benedict does not really have much interest in, but perhaps he is getting ready to declare the holocaust as a dogma of divine and catholic faith.

What a wacky place the Church has become.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Apotheoun

[MithLuin]

Ummmm, whoah there...

'The Vatican' generally refers to official statements that come out of the Vatican. Thus, if the pope says something, or if his official spokesman does, 'the Vatican' is quoted. Sometimes, this is misused, as when an editorial in L'Osservatore Romano discussing the Beatles was quoted back to 'the Vatican' with no indication of who actually wrote it.

But in this case, it is [i]not[/i] anonymous, as a careful re-reading will reveal:
[quote]Chief Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said Williamson's statement "does not seem to respect the conditions" set forth by the Vatican on February 4, when it ordered him to "in an absolutely unequivocal and public way distance himself from his positions" regarding the Holocaust.[/quote]

In other words, he was told 'do this' and he hasn't done it. All he said was, "I'm really sorry if I offended anyone with my statements," which does nothing to retract the statements.

Considering the lifting of the ex-communications was intended to allow dialogue with the SSPX, it seems rather undiplomatic of him to persist in this. Fellay sounds really fed up with him.



[b]Edit[/b]: Eeep, you all type fast!

Edited February 28, 2009 by MithLuin

[CatholicCid]

Here's what I was able to find concerning the conditions given:
[quote]In addition to the requirements extended to all the prelates of the Society of St. Pius X, the Vatican added that for Bishop Williamson [b]"to be admitted to function as a bishop within the Church, [/b][b][he] must also distance himself in an absolutely unequivocal and public way from his positions regarding the Shoah[/b], which were unknown to the Holy Father at the time of the remission of the excommunication."[/quote]
[url="http://www.zenit.org/article-25217?l=english"]http://www.zenit.org/article-25217?l=english[/url]

I fail to see the uproar, Apotheoun. The good Bishop can still achieve full reconciliation with the Church if he wishes to do so, without offering an apology.

However, if he wishes to be a functioning Shepard of the Church, it seems he needs to deal with the public scandal he has caused (and acknowledged).

Edited February 28, 2009 by CatholicCid

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1793700' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:47 PM']But in this case, it is [i]not[/i] anonymous, as a careful re-reading will reveal:

. . .

In other words, he was told 'do this' and he hasn't done it. All he said was, "I'm really sorry if I offended anyone with my statements," which does nothing to retract the statements.

Considering the lifting of the ex-communications was intended to allow dialogue with the SSPX, it seems rather undiplomatic of him to persist in this. Fellay sounds really fed up with him.[/quote]
I prefer the idea that it is an anonymous individual, because if the Pope is really asking for this type of apology my opinion of him as a theologian will need to be seriously revised.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1793702' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:49 PM']However, if he wishes to be a functioning Shepard of the Church, it seems he needs to deal with the public scandal he has caused (and acknowledged).[/quote]
I am disturbed by the fact that the Pope is concerned about how the Church looks to those who have embraced political correctness. The holocaust is irrelevant theologically, and so the idea that the Pope can order anyone to make an apology on that topic reveals a complete failure to grasp the nature of his own office. Sadly on issues where the Pope should act, e.g., when a bishop of the Roman Church supports the homosexual agenda, or fails to teach the truth about contraception, one hears only dead silence from the Vatican.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Apotheoun

[CatholicCid]

The holocaust is irrelevant theologically, which is why it such opinions provide no disruption from allowing Bishop Williamson from reentering full communion with the Church.

Edited February 28, 2009 by CatholicCid

[MithLuin]

Is the relationship of the Catholic Church with Jews also irrelevant, theologically speaking?

[Apotheoun]

A man is entitled to his own opinion on matters of general history, and the Pope has no authority to require that he change his opinion, i.e., unless the opinion in question involves a rejection of the dogmatic tradition of the Church (e.g., a rejection of the divinity of Christ, etc.).

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793697' date='Feb 28 2009, 04:45 PM']There is a thread currently at Phatmass about "the fifth Marian dogma," which, to be frank, it is pretty clear that Pope Benedict does not really have much interest in, but perhaps he is getting ready to declare the holocaust as a dogma of divine and catholic faith.

What a wacky place the Church has become.[/quote]

This post is more scandalous than the Holy See asking a rogue bishop to apologize for the deep public scandal he has caused the Church. Bishop Williamson's remarks about World War II are sinful. The Church certainly can set requirements of repentance from schismatic sects and their leaders before reconciling them. After reading the bishop's "apology", which is very cleverly worded (he actually isn't apologizing and repenting for what the Vatican is asking him to), I would agree with the Vatican's rejection.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1793707' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:56 PM']Is the relationship of the Catholic Church with Jews also irrelevant, theologically speaking?[/quote]
Yes, it is theologically irrelevant, because Rabbinic Judaism is a heresy.

Evangelization of the Jews is of course theological, while mere dialogue with them is not.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1793709' date='Feb 28 2009, 01:57 PM']This post is more scandalous than the Holy See asking a rogue bishop to apologize for the deep public scandal he has caused the Church. Bishop Williamson's remarks about World War II are sinful. The Church certainly can set requirements of repentance from schismatic sects and their leaders before reconciling them. After reading the bishop's "apology", which is very cleverly worded (he actually isn't apologizing and repenting for what the Vatican is asking him to), I would agree with the Vatican's rejection.[/quote]
It is not scandalous at all, because the Pope can issue a Marian dogma if he wishes, but he cannot ask people to apologize for holding a politically incorrect position on a point of general history.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1793709' date='Feb 28 2009, 03:57 PM']This post is more scandalous than the Holy See asking a rogue bishop to apologize for the deep public scandal he has caused the Church. Bishop Williamson's remarks about World War II are sinful. The Church certainly can set requirements of repentance from schismatic sects and their leaders before reconciling them. After reading the bishop's "apology", which is very cleverly worded (he actually isn't apologizing and repenting for what the Vatican is asking him to), I would agree with the Vatican's rejection.[/quote]

I agree, reading this thread is uncomfortable and steering towards Pope bashing.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1793717' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:02 PM']I agree, reading this thread is uncomfortable and steering towards Pope bashing.[/quote]
Pointing out that the Pope can make mistakes, or that he can be influenced by the cultural currents running throughout Western society is not "bashing" the Pope. But if you wish to read it in that way, I cannot stop you.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793713' date='Feb 28 2009, 05:00 PM']Yes, it is theologically irrelevant, because Rabbinic Judaism is a heresy.[/quote]


I guess most historians I have ever read put it the other way around. Christianity being the outgrowth of a Jewish reform movement. Who says that Rabbinic Judaism is a Christian heresy?

[quote]Evangelization of the Jews is of course theological, while mere dialogue with them is not.[/quote]

Is that the only thing Jews are good for? Being possible Catholics?