CatholicCid Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793708' date='Feb 28 2009, 04:57 PM']A man is entitled to his own opinion on matters of general history, and the Pope has no authority to require that he change his opinion, i.e., unless the opinion in question involves a rejection of the dogmatic tradition of the Church (e.g., a rejection of the divinity of Christ, etc.).[/quote] The holocaust is irrelevant theologically, which is why his opinions provide no disruption from allowing Bishop Williamson from reentering full communion with the Church. However, the Pope has authority when it comes to the functioning of Roman Catholic Bishops. Edited February 28, 2009 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1793723' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:05 PM']Who says that Rabbinic Judaism is a Christian heresy?[/quote] The Fathers of the Church, and interestingly enough the Vatican itself holds that Rabbinic Judaism is a Christian heresy, and that is why the [i]Commission for Relations with the Jews[/i] is a sub-committee of the [i]Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity[/i]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1793725' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:07 PM']The holocaust is irrelevant theologically, which is why his opinions provide no disruption from allowing Bishop Williamson from reentering full communion with the Church. However, the Pope has authority when it comes to the functioning of Roman Catholic Bishops.[/quote] The Pope's authority is limited to faith and morals, and so he has no special competence when it comes to issues of general history (or algebra, or geometry, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793727' date='Feb 28 2009, 05:08 PM']The Fathers of the Church, and interestingly enough the Vatican itself holds that Rabbinic Judaism is a Christian heresy, and that is why the [i]Commission for Relations with the Jews[/i] is a sub-committee of the [i]Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity[/i].[/quote] I'm sorry, I meant within secular historical thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793729' date='Feb 28 2009, 05:09 PM']The Pope's authority is limited to faith and morals, and so he has no special competence when it comes to issues of general history (or algebra, or geometry, etc.).[/quote] But should or can he discipline and/or act in anyway if a Bishop of the Church is causing public scandal? Edited February 28, 2009 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1793731' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:11 PM']But should or can he discipline and/or act in anyway if a Bishop of the Church is causing public scandal?[/quote] Only if the scandal is caused by something related to the dogmatic or moral order, e.g., giving communion to pro-abortion politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1793730' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:11 PM']I'm sorry, I meant within secular historical thought.[/quote] I know what you meant, but I do not read Christian history in a "secular" fashion. I am a theologian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793733' date='Feb 28 2009, 05:13 PM']Only if the scandal is caused by something related to the dogmatic or moral order, e.g., giving communion to pro-abortion politicians.[/quote] Is that "He should if..." or "He can if..." Do the Bishops have any type of vow of obedience to the Pope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1793737' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:14 PM']Is that "He should if..." or "He can if..."[/quote] In relation to my example, it is the former. The pope should be disciplining bishops who intentionally give communion to those who are in manifest public sin. [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1793737' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:14 PM']Do the Bishops have any type of vow of obedience to the Pope?[/quote] Bishops are to give obedience of a theological nature to the pope, and they are also required to enact the religious (ritual) discipline of the Church. In areas that are unrelated to faith and morals bishops are free to hold and express their own opinions. Edited February 28, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) To your first half of the post then, can the Pope discipline and/or act in anyway to a Bishop causing public scandal? (Not your opinion, but can he) Edited February 28, 2009 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793735' date='Feb 28 2009, 05:14 PM']I know what you meant, but I do not read Christian history in a "secular" fashion. I am a theologian.[/quote] Exactly what sorts of historical claims is the Church permitted to speak on then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793716' date='Feb 28 2009, 05:01 PM']It is not scandalous at all, because the Pope can issue a Marian dogma if he wishes, but he cannot ask people to apologize for holding a politically incorrect position on a point of general history.[/quote] The bishop is not holding a politically incorrect position, he is holding a position of madness at best and racism at worst that causes deep scandal and can cause nearly irreparable harm to the body of Christ and the mission of the Church. His position makes him as incompetent to hold the his office and the authority that comes with it. Similarly calling the Vicar of Christ and Christ's princes "wacky" when you have no such proof also has the capacity to cause scandal to non-Catholic and ill-educated Catholic viewers. One news article by an unnamed source is hardly enough to call the Holy Church "wacky". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1793743' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:21 PM']To your first half of the post then, can the Pope discipline and/or act in anyway to a Bishop causing public scandal? (Not your opinion, but can he)[/quote] Only if the scandal is caused by something that is within the competence of the Pope's office (i.e., a matter of faith or morals). To extend the Pope's authority in any other sense would be to give the Pope unlimited power, which is contrary to the tradition of the Roman Church itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1793747' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:23 PM']The bishop is not holding a politically incorrect position, he is holding a position of madness at best and racism at worst that causes deep scandal and can cause nearly irreparable harm to the body of Christ and the mission of the Church. His position makes him as incompetent to hold the his office and the authority that comes with it. Similarly calling the Vicar of Christ and Christ's princes "wacky" when you have no such proof also has the capacity to cause scandal to non-Catholic and ill-educated Catholic viewers. One news article by an unnamed source is hardly enough to call the Holy Church "wacky".[/quote] Bishop Williamson does not deny that the holocaust happened, what he denies is that 6 million Jews were killed, but that figure itself is only an estimate, and there are other estimates for the number of Jews killed that range from 2 million to as many as 9 million. Bishop Williamson's views may be -- as far as many people are concerned -- idiotic, but he has a right to hold them if he so chooses, and he remains free to express his opinion on matters of general history, as we are all free to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) I would have to disagree to an extent. Considering the Bishop is causing scandal (and has admitted that he has scandalized others through his opinions), I think it would be possible (and charitable) of the Pope to call for his brother Bishop to recognize his scandal and correct himself. Of course, he should not do so in a manner that would threaten the mortal soul of the Bishop, by say threatening excommunication. As it is not a matter of faith and morals, that would not be acceptable. Of course, the Bishop's opinions do not appear to prevent his full communion with the Catholic Church. He can (and prayerfully will) reenter full communion with the Church, even if he does not recant of his opinions. I do like how Brother Adam put it though, the (dangerous) position being held could call into question the competency of the good Bishop to hold office, which is a matter the Pope should be concerned about. If the Bishop could not function as a shepherd without causing scandal, then it might be in the best interest of the Church to remove him from heading, say, a Diocese. [i] Note: I know he is not in charge of a Diocese. I wished to say "remove him from functioning as a Bishop" but did not know if that would be proper terminology.[/i] Edited February 28, 2009 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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