Saintwannabe And Kafka

[Hassan]

I can't respond by those profile posts things because I am "Don't Rep Pope"

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=86623&st=0&start=0"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t=0&start=0[/url]

If this does not answer your questions feel free to ask/comment.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Hassan

[kafka]

Excellent.

I would like to go into genuine dialogue with you. I havent read your posts yet, but I will.

I am not overly concerned with your past, for that is something touched by the guilt of fallen men, which you and I could not possibly control. It is a situation which you and I could not choose for we are plunged into this world by a free act of God and are meant to find Him again amidst all this angst and error, suffering and sin. And it is also a situation touched by our own free choice to accept God in His self-communication in the depths of our own being or by a free choice to reject Him. For we must view ourselves in all our depravity, and all our sins. We must accept the fact of what we are, namely fallen sinful men. We must accept the fact that this life is a grey cloud of fallen human nature, and we must depend upon the light of God, for in all honesty we were plunged into this historical situation without a choice, yet after our creation and realization of self-conciousness, we are able to choose in freedom to accept the One who gave us a choice who is God; or to reject Him. And He is the light 'The true Light, which illuminates every man' and this is the Light which shines forth in the darkness, as salvific grace is present beyond Time and Place because of the salvific and glorious act of the death of Jesus Christ, beyond Time and Place. Our own sinfullness, our depravity, the cloudiness of our situation is nothing, compared to the gratuitousness of salvation, of God's forgiving self-communication in our own self-transcendance seeking Him in unity to our own personal histories. Yet our experience of life will always be cloudy because of the guilt-ridden situation we are immersed in, and the personal sins we have committed. We have to find God again in a personal way and in a collective way. And He has and especially will help us in our evil times (even within this month, less than thirty days from now, in an act of merciful Divine Revelation).

On the otherhand we have all experienced the grace of God in varying degrees of our acceptance. The self-communication of the Holy Mystery we call God is grace and it has touched us all and it is freely offered at every moment and in every place in the depth of our subjectivity, our personalities so to speak. And He must be moving us somehow, someway back to Him in that original transcendental experience of purity when we once were young. And God moves us in proportion to our acceptance of Him moving us towards Him. If this were not the case then we should truly despair, for there is nothing we could possibly do in order to move us toward the gratuitousness of God's gift of Himself, in which we are truly designed and in which which He established us before the foundation of the world. Yet how could we despair, when there is always time and there is always a place in our own personal histories, for God's gentle self-communication in the very essence of our beings to lead us and to offer us something beautific, something beyond that which is merely foreshadowed in this life (in all our good acts and good thoughts and all that is good in human life), namely the immediate Beautific Vision of Himself, which is the ONLY thing which can truly make any human, any lovely human being which ever traversed the earth: 'happy,' and all won back by Jesus Christ the God-man Whether Augustine knew it or not, he truly made a most profound and breathtaking and sweeping theological statement (and not a pietistical, pseudo-fervor statement) when he said:

Almighty God,
you have made us for yourself,
and our hearts are restless
till they find their rest in you;
so lead us by your Spirit
that in this life we may live to your glory
and in the life to come enjoy you for ever;


It is an adventure. And the adventure was established by Christ the God-man, the culmination of Sacred Tradition, the true self-communication of God and acceptance of God in the human nature of the Logos. And He (the God-man) during His life on earth, established the Catholic Church, as the easy way, the true way, the most assured way, the public categorical way, for us fallen men in our all guilteness, in all the situation of our personal sins, and the the guilt-ridden historical situation we are immersed in by God's gift of freely creating us:

to make it back to Him, the same One who created us and saved us . . .

And by making it back to Him we must bring others with us, according to our life situation, for salvation is not certain; there is always the possibility of our own rejection of God in our own freedom which God radically established by creating us in His own image and likeness.

And there is more. I havent even read your posts yet.

Edited March 15, 2009 by kafka

[kafka]

o.k. Hassan I just now read your first testimony in the link you posted above.

All I will say for now is please, please read 'Foundations of Christian Faith' by Karl Rahner. Also read some of the articles by my mentor Ron Conte. I will let you know which ones tommorrow, its too late now so I cant think quite clearly. Also you have to re-read the New Testament without prejudice. Try to read it purely and prayfully and generally do not place too much weight about what anyone taught you about any verses in the past. Try and let God teach you.

I say this seriously you are a man after my heart. Some of the things you expressed are similar (yet not exactly the same) to my own experiences.

Grace and Peace to you.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='kafka' post='1807523' date='Mar 15 2009, 09:57 AM']Also you have to re-read the New Testament without prejudice. Try to read it purely and prayfully and generally do not place too much weight about what anyone taught you about any verses in the past. Try and let God teach you.[/quote]
A bit off-topic, so sorry, but this reminded me of something I was thinking yesterday when reading a novel. I was thinking, what if I read the Bible like that, with the page-turning excitement. So often I see the passage and think "yeah, I know that one", and just skim over it, instead of allowing myself to be swept along in the reading of it. Just had to share that.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1807507' date='Mar 15 2009, 03:04 AM']I can't respond by those profile posts things because I am "Don't Rep Pope"

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=86623&st=0&start=0"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t=0&start=0[/url]

If this does not answer your questions feel free to ask/comment.[/quote]

Hassan, I almost cried when reading your story. I want you to read mine [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=91188"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=91188[/url].
I went through kind of the same struggle you did, except in a much shorter amount of time. I will pray for you constantly. I am really touched. You know a year ago, when I was just poking around this phorum and I hadn't really joined, I saw you engaging some peeps in arguments and I was like who is this *******? But, when I got to know you, I realize that you are a seeker of truth. I will give you two pieces of advice for now, pray to John Paul the Great and ask Jesus, Our Older Bro, to reveal Himself to you. He will do it.

[kafka]

o.k. Hassan I read your story again. I did notice a few things. First of all you are intellegent. The only time you seemed intellectualy dishonest was at the end when you said you are not "the brightest star in the sky," No you are not the brightest yet you are brighter than others. And I dont say that to flatter I say that since you have to work with the unique mind God gave you as a starting point. Now I want to make some comments. They might be sloppy, since I dont want to keep re-reading your story over and over, and please forgive me if I misread you or perhaps wasnt intuitive enough thereby possibly offending, which is not the intention.

One thing I noticed is that your journey with religion in highschool seemed to mimick teen angst, which is not your fault. Growing up you were given almost no teachings, and then in your teens you suddenly are struck for a search for the God of Truth, at the same time you are physically and emotionally developing. Lets face it the teens are difficult enough in the fallen modern society we are plunged in with no choice, yet they were magnified in difficulty for you since you took it upon yourself very responsibly and (may I add) nobly to pursue the deepest questions of existence. In this I see a lot of myself when I was struck by similar experiences when I was sixteen. As much as I strained in effort my view of God, religion and personal existance was naive well into my twenties, and I suggest that based on some of the things you thought and did in your story seem to point out that in spite of all the theology, philosophy, religious devotions, etc. that you may have viewed things a bit naively.

I also noticed that you rarely mentioned Jesus Christ, yet you seemed to mention the Catholic Church many times as if it is an object. It isnt an object. It is a society of members who worship the Father, in union with Jesus Christ and by the effect and movement of the Holy Spirit in our souls called grace. We also worship the God-man Jesus Christ. He is really the profound and mystical center or ground of everything the Church is. Some members are formal members and profess a full profession of Catholic Faith, and some are non-formal members who do not profess a full profession of Faith yet still may be in the state of sanctifying (or justifying) grace also known as salvific grace, also known as love-faith-hope. In one sense every member of the human race is in some way a member of the Chruch since God the Son mystically united Himself to Humanity. There are many dimensions to the Church. In another sense I myself, Nicholas am the Church, just as much as the Pope is. The Church is not an object. You seem to have viewed things too horizontally.

Nor is Faith an object. You seem to struggle with proof and intellectual assent whereas (believe it or not) that isnt really Faith at all. Not at all. Reason supports Faith and may in some instances lead up to Faith, yet Faith is so much more it is so much more grand and mysterious. Faith cannot be seperated from Love, and Hope cannot be seperated from Love and Faith. These three are a reflection of the Holy Trinity and make up what we call one gift of sanctifying (or justifying grace) or salvific grace (all the same reality just different terms). Reading your story it is quite possible that all that you possessed true Faith and didnt even realize (how could we since it resides as a modification in the depths of our subjectivity). And so you put yourself through all this trouble possibly for nothing, for the very act of searching for Truth was in fact an implicit acceptance of God who is Truth. And that is one dimension of Faith. Acceptance of everything good (grace, etc.) God continually offers us in our deepest subjectivity, and also in our own concrete histories through other men, in life situations, personal events, etc. There are more dimensions of Faith, yet I think I am getting a bit long winded at this point.

Also when you were in your teens, and very impressionable so it is possible you may have misread or placed too much weight of some of the works you mentioned reading like the Saint Theresa of Avila comment.

I would love a response from you, in the form of dialogue. No a thank you lets move on wont cut it Hassan Just kidding you can do what you would like, but I am not afraid of a genuine dialogue where we throw ideas out at eachother and work to a more profound grasp of Truth.

Also if you dont want to do the dialogue thing, at this point I would like to know where you are at in your journey, or what problems you are facing at this moment about religion, God, theology, philosophy or anything.

Edited March 15, 2009 by kafka

[Hassan]

Alright.

I'm probably going to be reasonably busy until this Thursday, so I'll try to respond to all of the points here so far by then or Friday

I just mean that this is a bit to heavy for my to just shoot something out in between studying/reading as I usually do.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Hassan

[Hassan]

As for the bright comment, I really don't consider myself such. In other instances when someone brings up trouble with intelectually accecpting religion the retort goes "ah, you think you are so smart you have seen what x,y,and z have not" I just wanted to be clear that I understood that people much, much smarter than I, from the current pope to Godel, have intelectually reconciled faith with reason, but for my part I could not. That's all really.

[kafka]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1807788' date='Mar 15 2009, 05:17 PM']Alright.

I'm probably going to be reasonably busy until this Thursday, so I'll try to respond to all of the points here so far by then or Friday

I just mean that this is a bit to heavy for my to just shoot something out in between studying/reading as I usually do.[/quote]
of course. You dont have to do respond at all, and I'd still be happy just to have shared something of my understanding with you.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1807791' date='Mar 15 2009, 05:26 PM']As for the bright comment, I really don't consider myself such. In other instances when someone brings up trouble with intelectually accecpting religion the retort goes "ah, you think you are so smart you have seen what x,y,and z have not" I just wanted to be clear that I understood that people much, much smarter than I, from the current pope to Godel, have intelectually reconciled faith with reason, but for my part I could not. That's all really.[/quote]
So one of your main problems is the reconciliation of faith and reason. I'd be interested in knowing what this personaly means for you, and wherein the particular difficulties arise. I think this would be a better common ground for a dialogue since it is more objective. My above responses were based on estimated guesses of your own personal experiences and understandings, marred by my own personal experiences and understandings, so I may have been way off in the way I responded, yet with the problems faith and reason pose we have a common categorical ground to start from.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kafka' post='1807801' date='Mar 15 2009, 05:45 PM']of course. You dont have to do respond at all, and I'd still be happy just to have shared something of my understanding with you.[/quote]


well I do think we could have a good discussion, so I will keep this going, even if sometimes it takes me a while before I give a thoughtful response

[kafka]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1808130' date='Mar 15 2009, 11:05 PM']well I do think we could have a good discussion, so I will keep this going, even if sometimes it takes me a while before I give a thoughtful response[/quote]
that sounds good. And I'm hoping it will remain more intellectual dialogue and less debate, although I admit I was a bit challenging on post #5 I believe it was.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kafka' post='1808142' date='Mar 15 2009, 11:23 PM']that sounds good. And I'm hoping it will remain more intellectual dialogue and less debate, although I admit I was a bit challenging on post #5 I believe it was.

[/quote]


That is exactly what I am interested in

[kafka]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1808406' date='Mar 16 2009, 03:38 AM']That is exactly what I am interested in [/quote]
me too.

I did just notice something you said (in one of the above posts), that is a bit well, interesting, perhaps a bit above you for expressing it at your point in history.

Anywho, you must be a nocturnal creature as am I? Eh?

[Hassan]

[quote name='kafka' post='1808415' date='Mar 16 2009, 02:50 AM']me too.

I did just notice something you said (in one of the above posts), that is a bit well, interesting, perhaps a bit above you for expressing it at your point in history.[/quote]

What do you mean?

[quote]Anywho, you must be a nocturnal creature as am I? Eh?[/quote]


lol, big time.

[TotusTuusMaria]

smarties.

EDIT: I know, I know... im "c-ing" my way out of it.

know im praying Edited March 16, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria