Aloysius Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust; but often when he causes it to fall on the unjust it CAN be interpreted as a message. that's the Christian tradition, not the Phelps family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginiancatholic Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Dude, that's harsh as can be! They are implying that God did this to teach that guy a lesson. That kinda seems really second grade (the "I'm gonna teach him a lesson" attitude) The loss of any life in a violent manner is a tragedy, whether the person lived uprightly or not, whether they or their relatives had spanking clean morals or not. sympathy and prayers are the proper reaction, eh? Perhaps it is meant to be a sign to the man (which I don't dispute), but that idea shouldn't outshine at least the fact of the tragedy. May the Lord have mercy on them, and may they be happy with him today in paradise. Fidelium animae per misericordiam Dei requiescant in pace. Amen. PS. this is not a direct response to anyone but to the article itself. Edited March 25, 2009 by virginiancatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1816317' date='Mar 25 2009, 04:52 PM']I thought we were supposed to love our enemies.[/quote] Saying that God could have called down vengeance upon this man does not have anything to do with love our enemies. God loves all His children, far more than we are capable of loving, and He is just and still punishes them for things that they do wrong. And no, I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, before someone puts words in my mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='BG45' post='1816322' date='Mar 25 2009, 04:55 PM']Love thy enemy, pray for those who hate you, etc. don't seem to be the theme of this article. Rather the theme of this article is almost a physical pleasure at the suffering of another human being, a use of a cheap shot at a man who has profited from a despicable industry by bringing up the tragic loss of his family.[/quote] Exactly. And using his children, who had no part in his activities, as mere means to spir in his face with. I wouldn't compare Aloysius' points to the Phelps family, I understand his point. What I find low is the srticle itself. The sick tone of it as the author, as you said, seems to take pleasure in what has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1816323' date='Mar 25 2009, 04:56 PM']God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust; but often when he causes it to fall on the unjust it CAN be interpreted as a message. that's the Christian tradition, not the Phelps family.[/quote] I understand that. I don't think people are objecting to your point so much as your attempt to defend the article which seems to go beyond this point and take pleasure in the fate of this man as some cheep "I told you so". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I am very sad that this happened! May the abortionist dude have the courage to repent and accept God's undying love! prayers~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I don't know about the article, it seems it could go either way.. but obviously doesn't seem to be from a Catholic perspective and some types of Protestants do have a twisted understanding of God's wrath and reward thinking riches and good fortune to always be a sign of favor from God and bad fortune always a sign of His displeasure (Calvinists, for instance). in any event, our God is still the God who caused the death of the firstborns of all of Egypt for another of the four sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance: taking advantage of the poor, in this case the slavery of Israel. God has not changed from Old Testament times, there is still much to be said for His vengeance and wrath; in which, in death, all those who are meant for eternal life are sorted out accordingly. death is not the ultimate evil, and when it is not caused by the will of man it may be a tragedy but it is not an evil. it is likely enough God took this whole family when He knew they were in a state to be received into purgatory or heaven, as a message to this monstrous murderer of babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1816323' date='Mar 25 2009, 04:56 PM']God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust; but often when he causes it to fall on the unjust it CAN be interpreted as a message. that's the Christian tradition, not the Phelps family.[/quote] Yes, but what would you say if the plane was full of a famous pro-lifer's family? I think we (in general) need to take this for what it is, a tragic plane accident, and not transform it into some episode of divine intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1816336' date='Mar 25 2009, 05:11 PM']Yes, but what would you say if the plane was full of a famous pro-lifer's family? I think we (in general) need to take this for what it is, a tragic plane accident, and not transform it into some episode of divine intervention.[/quote] I think his point the rain falls on the just as well as the unjust covers that. My more abstract question is to what extent is an even 'x' an act of God? I think of Hume's argument on suicide here. Does God not ordain every plane that crashes crash? Certianly the event does not occur against his will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I would say God makes the rain to fall equally on the just and the unjust. that's the point: these things happen to the good and the bad alike, but that doesn't mean there is no message in them. there is a meaning derived from this event: a deep and profound meaning at that, a reaffirmation of the fact that murder, especially its most heinous type: abortion, is a sin which calls to heaven for vengeance. the meaning when it happens to a good man, like Job in the Bible, is "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" and to remember to have hope and joy in Him; the message to a wicked man, especially when he is a murderer of children who has lost his children himself, is "repent, the things that you do are far worse than the loss of your family" there is meaning in all human suffering, that's the Catholic tradition. sometimes the meaning includes the wrath and vengeance of Almighty God. sometimes it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1816342' date='Mar 25 2009, 05:15 PM']the meaning when it happens to a good man, like Job in the Bible, is "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" and to remember to have hope and joy in Him; the message to a wicked man, especially when he is a murderer of children who has lost his children himself, is "repent, the things that you do are far worse than the loss of your family[/quote] Or MAYBE God could use this tragic incident to reach out to this man with a message of "I am comforting you in your grief; the life lost was precious and of great value to Me and the world. I mourn for all my lost children - including the unborn. Do you understand My feelings now, that ALL life is truly precious?" God is a God of MERCY besides justice. Edited March 25, 2009 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1816340' date='Mar 25 2009, 06:14 PM']I think his point the rain falls on the just as well as the unjust covers that. My more abstract question is to what extent is an even 'x' an act of God? I think of Hume's argument on suicide here. Does God not ordain every plane that crashes crash? Certianly the event does not occur against his will.[/quote] some things are actively willed by God on earth, and some are allowed by His passive will; and all are worked into His ultimate plan for everyone so that we can never say something happened against God's will. the bad things that happen in the world are, in large part, caused by human sin... even those things which do not have any direct connection to human actions: the corruption of our own nature corrupts the whole of nature metaphysically. SIN is the original "carbon footprint" that brings down floods, hurricanes, volcanoes, famines, plagues, and all sorts of natural disasters upon is. so all the things which do occur which are bad in the world are passively allowed by God's passive will on the basis that it is His will that humanity have free will; and our choice of evil has had consequences for humanity and for the whole of nature. but God does not actively will those things, only permits them for a greater good He is working out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1816345' date='Mar 25 2009, 06:19 PM']Or MAYBE God could use this tragic incident to reach out to this man with a message of "I am comforting you in your grief; the life lost was precious and of great value to Me and the world. I mourn for all my lost children - including the unborn. Do you understand now why life is so precious?" God is a God of MERCY besides justice.[/quote] that is indeed a large part of God's message here. I suppose it is not the side I am emphasizing as much, and I welcome your emphasis of it to clarify that I do not intend to say "neiner neiner neiner we told you so" like some interpret the article as saying (and it does come off that way in large part) God is a God of mercy AND justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginiancatholic Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 True that. But it is not our right or privilege to decide which events are the wrath of God and which are his Mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1816345' date='Mar 25 2009, 04:19 PM']Or MAYBE God could use this tragic incident to reach out to this man with a message of "I am comforting you in your grief; the life lost was precious and of great value to Me and the world. I mourn for all my lost children - including the unborn. Do you understand My feelings now, that ALL life is truly precious?" God is a God of MERCY besides justice.[/quote] I don't quite understand that. I mourn all my children, so I killed some to make a point. I understand the idea that illicitly killing God's creation is an affront to him and a wickedness which demands retribution. But the God you describe (and perhapse I am reading you wrong) seems arbitrary. Almost like a "God of the gaps". For instance you asked why not simply accecpt the plane crash as a natural event (I believe). So God does not ordain the crash but natural events, but God pops in to tell the man he's very sorry for his loss and won't he please come around to the right side. Sorry if that comes off a bit confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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