Moral Theology

[Resurrexi]

BTW, in regards to scrupulosity (from which I myself suffer greatly) perhaps this will also be helpful:

"One may act contrary to a scrupulous conscience without sinning, even if the action be undertaken with great fear of committing sin.

The scrupulous conscience is nothing else but a state of fear. -- The principle laid down holds even if the scrupulous person at the moment of acting does not think of his fear as a mere scruple. It suffices that he be habitually aware that he may do anything which he does not know for certain to be a mortal sin. A s scrupulous person may do anything he sees conscientious people do, even though it may be against his conviction. He need not use more than average carefulness when acting. If he cannot apply the directions given him and cannot seek advice, he may do as he chooses, provided there is no question of doing what is evidently and clearly sinful. A scrupulous person, by reason of great harm that he may do to himself, may be excused from many positive duties, e.g., fraternal correction, confessional integrity. If impure thoughts arise by his looking at innocent objects or persons, he may look attentively at such things and becomingly at such persons, and pay not attention to the resulting emotions. If the scruple concerns the fulfillment of a duty (breviary, penance, vow, etc.) he may presume that he has adequately fulfilled his obligation. If the scruple concerns the sufficiency of his contrition he may decide in his own favor. He need not confess sins committed before his last confession unless he can swear that he certainly sinned gravely, and that he certainly has not yet confessed the sin. Even in this latter instance there may be circumstances which will excuse him from an integral confession. The same holds for doubts about previous confessions. -- Scrupulous persons who mistake their feeling of anxiety for remorse of conscience should be informed that he cause of this anxiety is the nerves and not some sin of which they may be guilty" (Fr. Jone, [i]Moral Theology[/i], p. 42)

[Aloysius]

I would like to gently suggest that, in addition to studying such moral theology as to which things constitute "grave matter", one might also apply a bit of common sense, but reservedly.

"grave" means "serious"... it is appropriate to ask yourself the question of this or that one of your sins "is this serious?" now, I say to do this reservedly, as one's biased common sense might then begin to justify every action as "oh, that's not that serious" or a scrupulous common sense might try to tell oneself that everything is serious. there is a fine line, but in general the application of a common sense understanding of whether the matter involved in the sin is "serious" (while always referencing good confessors and moral theology guides to keep you in check against unjust justifications or scrupolisties) can help to determine if you have grave matter. but always ask yourself "do I really think this is not serious, or do I just want to think it is not serious?" or in reverse "do I really think this is so serious, or am I just being too scrupulous".

at the very least, when one applies ones common sense to the question of whether one holds something to be serious or not and comes back with the answer that they truly believe it was not serious matter, ie grave matter, then even if it was grave matter one has not fulfilled the requirement of full knowledge that it is wrong.

[Ziggamafu]

Bottomline: if you commit a mortal sin, you know it. Full knowledge and deliberate consent is required for the sin to be mortal in the first place. [b]You do not accidentally commit a mortal sin. And you do not sit around and (sincerely) wonder if a prior mortal sin was indeed mortal.[/b] If it was mortal, you wouldn't need to ask. That doesn't mean you shouldn't always try to educate your conscience, of course.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

some more: How exactly is gossip defined? someone was telling a story, about her experience visiting with a friend I knew. The story wasn't really bad, but was kind of unflattering towards the friend. I assented and listened. Was i participating in gossip?

in general if people are gossiping, and i recognize this, do I have to tell them to stop under pain of Mortal sin? Or can I Just not participate (or would this cause scandal)?


lying: when is it mortal?


Music: hypothetical. lets say I turn on a rap song in my car, with a friend. Its inappropriate, but its not mortally sinful or anything because it doesn't arouse any inappropriate passions. I am enjoying it, does this cause scandal?


I know this is a lot, but I am just trying to inform my conscience.


Sam

[Aloysius]

gossip consists of spreading information around that you do not have the right to spread around. if things are public knowledge, you are under no obligation not to talk about them. if someone spreads such information to you, the sin is theirs and so long as you do not continue to spread the gossip, you're fine.

there is calumny, however, in which one tears down another's reputation... you could commit calumny even if the information was public knowledge if you used it in a vicious way against that person; however, if someone is being calumnious about you, the only thing you would do to not participate in it is to defend the person being calumniated in some way (and this could just consist of an "oh come on, it's not that bad" or something... the highest Christian virtue would demand you putting yourself on the line for anyone being unfairly calumniated as Christ would've done, but in ordinary human circumstances, especially if the calumny itself is not being taken too seriously by your friends, just try not to participate in destroying someone's reputation)

best answer I can think of for when lying is mortal is referencing back to my last post... when is it serious (grave) matter? are you keeping information from someone who has a serious right to that information? such a lie is grave matter. are you keeping information from someone who has a right to that information but it's not that serious of a right (ie it's not really that bad that they don't know it, even if they should)? such a lie is venial, probably.

you're allowed to like rap music. there are well informed opinions out there which believe rap music to be detrimental and arousing of bad passions, and one shouldn't just dismiss them out of hand as they have good points; but there is no clear way to claim listening to rap music is a sin at all. it could be a sin for some (ie if they believe that the specific rap music they are listening to will arouse bad passions within them, then they have acted against their conscience by doing what they believe will cause a near occasion of sin)... there is no scandal involved in listening to rap music that you do not believe will arouse bad passions within you, though.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1829183' date='Apr 8 2009, 06:26 PM']gossip consists of spreading information around that you do not have the right to spread around. if things are public knowledge, you are under no obligation not to talk about them. if someone spreads such information to you, the sin is theirs and so long as you do not continue to spread the gossip, you're fine.

there is calumny, however, in which one tears down another's reputation... you could commit calumny even if the information was public knowledge if you used it in a vicious way against that person; however, if someone is being calumnious about you, the only thing you would do to not participate in it is to defend the person being calumniated in some way (and this could just consist of an "oh come on, it's not that bad" or something... the highest Christian virtue would demand you putting yourself on the line for anyone being unfairly calumniated as Christ would've done, but in ordinary human circumstances, especially if the calumny itself is not being taken too seriously by your friends, just try not to participate in destroying someone's reputation)

best answer I can think of for when lying is mortal is referencing back to my last post... when is it serious (grave) matter? are you keeping information from someone who has a serious right to that information? such a lie is grave matter. are you keeping information from someone who has a right to that information but it's not that serious of a right (ie it's not really that bad that they don't know it, even if they should)? such a lie is venial, probably.

you're allowed to like rap music. there are well informed opinions out there which believe rap music to be detrimental and arousing of bad passions, and one shouldn't just dismiss them out of hand as they have good points; but there is no clear way to claim listening to rap music is a sin at all. it could be a sin for some (ie if they believe that the specific rap music they are listening to will arouse bad passions within them, then they have acted against their conscience by doing what they believe will cause a near occasion of sin)... there is no scandal involved in listening to rap music that you do not believe will arouse bad passions within you, though.[/quote]


deciding what is serious matter (in the lie situation) is hard. I am inclined to say no, but am unsure. I should probably just ask a priest about this specific circumstance. Thank you for your response, and thanks to everyone else as well. I will be going back to confession for the first time in 4 years and I appreciate your help.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1829037' date='Apr 8 2009, 03:52 PM']some more: How exactly is gossip defined? someone was telling a story, about her experience visiting with a friend I knew. The story wasn't really bad, but was kind of unflattering towards the friend. I assented and listened. Was i participating in gossip?

in general if people are gossiping, and i recognize this, do I have to tell them to stop under pain of Mortal sin? Or can I Just not participate (or would this cause scandal)?[/quote]

"Listening to detraction and calumny is sinful:
a) If the other person is thereby induced to detract or calumniate

In this case the listener becomes and accomplice in the sin of injustice: besides, he sins also by scandal. Generally the listener does not sin seriously if he merely desires to obtain this knowledge for himself and is firmly determined to see to it that the information will go no further.

b) If one rejoices in the fault -- real or imputed.

c) If one does not hinder the defamation although he can do so.

Whoever acts thus sins against charity. However, since charity does not oblige under grave inconvenience and because the success of a correction is very often doubtful, the silence of private individuals is generally free from grievous sin at least. If one must listen to such talk against his will without being able to prevent it he commits no sin." (Fr. Jone, Moral [i]Theology[/i], p. 253)

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1829037' date='Apr 8 2009, 03:52 PM']lying: when is it mortal?[/quote]

St. Thomas Aquinas, in response to "Whether every lie is a mortal sin?":

"I answer that, A mortal sin is, properly speaking, one that is contrary to charity whereby the soul lives in union with God, as stated above (24, 12; 35, 3). Now a lie may be contrary to charity in three ways: first, in itself; secondly, in respect of the evil intended; thirdly, accidentally.

A lie may be in itself contrary to charity by reason of its false signification. For if this be about divine things, it is contrary to the charity of God, whose truth one hides or corrupts by such a lie; so that a lie of this kind is opposed not only to the virtue of charity, but also to the virtues of faith and religion: wherefore it is a most grievous and a mortal sin. If, however, the false signification be about something the knowledge of which affects a man's good, for instance if it pertain to the perfection of science or to moral conduct, a lie of this description inflicts an injury on one's neighbor, since it causes him to have a false opinion, wherefore it is contrary to charity, as regards the love of our neighbor, and consequently is a mortal sin. On the other hand, if the false opinion engendered by the lie be about some matter the knowledge of which is of no consequence, then the lie in question does no harm to one's neighbor; for instance, if a person be deceived as to some contingent particulars that do not concern him. Wherefore a lie of this kind, considered in itself, is not a mortal sin.

As regards the end in view, a lie may be contrary to charity, through being told with the purpose of injuring God, and this is always a mortal sin, for it is opposed to religion; or in order to injure one's neighbor, in his person, his possessions or his good name, and this also is a mortal sin, since it is a mortal sin to injure one's neighbor, and one sins mortally if one has merely the intention of committing a mortal sin. But if the end intended be not contrary to charity, neither will the lie, considered under this aspect, be a mortal sin, as in the case of a jocose lie, where some little pleasure is intended, or in an officious lie, where the good also of one's neighbor is intended. Accidentally a lie may be contrary to charity by reason of scandal or any other injury resulting therefrom: and thus again it will be a mortal sin, for instance if a man were not deterred through scandal from lying publicly." ([i]Summa Theologiae[/i], II-II, Q. 110, Art. 4)


[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1829037' date='Apr 8 2009, 03:52 PM']Music: hypothetical. lets say I turn on a rap song in my car, with a friend. Its inappropriate, but its not mortally sinful or anything because it doesn't arouse any inappropriate passions. I am enjoying it, does this cause scandal?[/quote]

Just a suggestion, maybe you shouldn't be listening to the inappropriate music in the first place. (not that all rap music is inappropriate, but some of it is)

Edited April 8, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1829214' date='Apr 8 2009, 07:39 PM']deciding what is serious matter (in the lie situation) is hard. I am inclined to say no, but am unsure. I should probably just ask a priest about this specific circumstance. Thank you for your response, and thanks to everyone else as well. I will be going back to confession for the first time in 4 years and I appreciate your help.[/quote]
asking a priest in the confessional is always your best bet.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1828051' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:10 PM']Again, I hope that this will help

"I. Duties of Children towards their parents. Piety requires that children show their parents:

1. Reverence, not only by internal sentiments but also by external conduct.

Sins against filiar reverence are committed against internal contempt, offensive speech, disdainful deportment, striking blows. Even a trivial but seriously meant abuse can be a grave sin. It is likewise a sin against filial reverence to be ashamed of one's parents, to disown or fail to recognize them because of their humble state, poor clothes, etc. -- It is not a sin against reverence to restrain one's parents even by physical force for some good reason and without interior contempt in case they have lost the use of their reason, e.g., because of insanity, old age or intoxication. Similarly, one may have good reason for not desiring to associate with his parents (because of some crime of theirs) provided, of course, that he looks out for their necessary support.

2. Love, in thought, word and deed.

Sins against the love due to parents are: indignation, hatred, cursing, speaking ill of them, injurious words or conduct, causing them anxiety, failure to pray for them or support them in spiritual or corporal necessity. -- If children can assist their parents in grave need by remaining in the world they may not enter the religious life. -- There is no obligation for children to pay their parents' debts after their death if the children have not inherited anything from them, even though the parents contracted these debts for the purpose of educating their children.

3. Obedience in all lawful matters which relate either to their training or to the domestic order.

Disobedience is a grievous sin if it concerns an important matter and the parents have given a real command. -- In educational matters the obligation of obedience lasts until the children come of age. Minors may not, therefore, undertake certain work or enlist against the army against the will of their parents. But in the choice of their vocation they are free. -- Even adult children, as long as they stay at home, must obey in all things necessary for domestic order, e.g., to return home at a reasonable hour at night. -- Before marrying, children should consult their parents. But even if they do not follow the sensible advice of their parents they generally commit only a venial sin." (Fr. Herbert Jone, [i]Moral Theology[/i], pp. 126 - 127)[/quote]


this is interesting: so it is mortally sinful to express anger towards our parents? i often but heads with my parents, and we disagree with each other, and argue. sometimes we get mad at each other..... is there anything wrong with this?

[Resurrexi]

The gravity of the sinfulness of dishonor to one's parents would depend on how dishonorable one was being towards them.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Ziggamafu]

The two books that were most helpful to me in my scrupulosity were Heribert Jone's [i]Moral Theology[/i] and Ripley's [i]This is the Faith[/i]. Both books caused me to be simultaneously more exhaustively critical in my examinations of conscience and yet more hopeful and confident in the state of my soul. I went from going to weekly confession out of fear to going to weekly confession out of devotion. My focus on the afterlife become an obsession with love rather than a terror of judgment.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1824898' date='Apr 5 2009, 12:46 AM']As a Catholic I have always struggled with the concept of mortal sin. Its hard for me to tell if something is mortal or not. I used to see every sin as mortal which led me to stop practicing.

As of now, I am trying to inform my conscience so I can make a good confession, but also so I can conduct my life free from the troubles of my conscience.[/quote]I don't think you should be too much concerned about drawing the line between mortal and venial sins. I get the feeling that, for you, venial sins are "acceptable" while mortal sins are "unacceptable". You've got one thing right, though: all sins fall indeed into the "unacceptable" category; but that doesn't mean they're all mortal. One should strive not to sin, at all; and to confess regularly with sincere contrition. If you've got that, no need to worry ! Trust in Jesus and you will certainly be saved.

Now, you might want to know if you need to abstain from Holy Communion. I think the best practice is to confess before mass, then you never need to worry. Otherwise, use the Catechism as your guide on this matter. If you've willingly commited anything it mentions as a grave sin, then you should abstain from Holy Communion. Anyway, if it happens, you shouldn't feel bad from abstaining from Communion.

Simple !

Edited April 9, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1829586' date='Apr 8 2009, 11:16 PM']I don't think you should be too much concerned about drawing the line between mortal and venial sins. I get the feeling that, for you, venial sins are "acceptable" while mortal sins are "unacceptable". You've got one thing right, though: all sins fall indeed into the "unacceptable" category; but that doesn't mean they're all mortal. One should strive not to sin, at all; and to confess regularly with sincere contrition. If you've got that, no need to worry ! Trust in Jesus and you will certainly be saved.

Now, you might want to know if you need to abstain from Holy Communion. I think the best practice is to confess before mass, then you never need to worry. Otherwise, use the Catechism as your guide on this matter. If you've willingly commited anything it mentions as a grave sin, then you should abstain from Holy Communion. Anyway, if it happens, you shouldn't feel bad from abstaining from Communion.

Simple ![/quote]
To be quite honest, most people commit venial sins nearly constantly during the day. That's a bit of an Exaggeration, but you see my point. We strive to never sin, but as fallen humans we will never attain that in this life. Therefore one should, in a sense, not get hung up on the venial sins. Address them as necessary, fix them at all times, but don't let them hinder your faith. Mortal sins, of course, have already hindered the faith and must be confessed immediately. They're a far greater worry in that sense, because you've already cut yourself off from God's already undeserved Grace.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1829624' date='Apr 9 2009, 01:35 AM']To be quite honest, most people commit venial sins nearly constantly during the day. That's a bit of an Exaggeration, but you see my point. We strive to never sin, but as fallen humans we will never attain that in this life. Therefore one should, in a sense, not get hung up on the venial sins. Address them as necessary, fix them at all times, but don't let them hinder your faith. Mortal sins, of course, have already hindered the faith and must be confessed immediately. They're a far greater worry in that sense, because you've already cut yourself off from God's already undeserved Grace.[/quote]I agree with you that one should not get hung up with his own venial sins. After all, the whole point of Christianity (well, from a certain angle) is that Christ has triumphed over death and over our sins. As long as we keep faith and do as best we can, we shouldn't give much attention to what we did and we could have done better etc., I think it can quickly become dangerous to the virtue of Hope.

Now, sure, if you've done something very evil, you should be concerned about it, and seek reconciliation with everyone concerned, including God. But the OP here seemed worried with mortal sin on a daily basis and that's not normal. Unless you're a drug dealer or in the mafia, you certainly don't commit very evil acts on a daily basis. That's what I'm saying one shouldn't be too concerned about drawing the "fine line" between mortal and venial sins. There's no "fine line" really; if you've done something very evil, you should be well aware of it, no need to scrutinize yourself to no end.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1829664' date='Apr 8 2009, 11:52 PM']I agree with you that one should not get hung up with his own venial sins. After all, the whole point of Christianity (well, from a certain angle) is that Christ has triumphed over death and over our sins. As long as we keep faith and do as best we can, we shouldn't give much attention to what we did and we could have done better etc., I think it can quickly become dangerous to the virtue of Hope.

Now, sure, if you've done something very evil, you should be concerned about it, and seek reconciliation with everyone concerned, including God. But the OP here seemed worried with mortal sin on a daily basis and that's not normal. Unless you're a drug dealer or in the mafia, you certainly don't commit very evil acts on a daily basis. That's what I'm saying one shouldn't be too concerned about drawing the "fine line" between mortal and venial sins. There's no "fine line" really; if you've done something very evil, you should be well aware of it, no need to scrutinize yourself to no end.[/quote]
Quite right. Differences of emphasis.

As I think has been said before, if you're in a state of mortal sin, you won't doubt or wonder about it.