Masturbation Ii

[marccatholic]

Hi! Good morning everybody.


I was no that contented with Cappie's reply about masturbation because really it was just a one sentence. I was expecting him to discuss the matter seriously in the light of the Word of God and with the Church's teaching in benefit for all the readers here. Zach still asks for a definitive answer so he (and also we) can understand deeply about this male stuff.


BTW, I read a non-catholic article about masturbation. Can you please share your rebuttals, insights, disagreements,etc. with his view about masturbation? Thanks.


Here it is.




Masturbation: To Sin or Not to Sin?
2007 May 27
by Bro. Eli

In my 43 years of propagating God’s words n the Bible, I have come across numerous people asking me what the Bible says about masturbation: Is it a sin to masturbate or not? Many religious denominations condemn masturbation in whatever manner it is done. In the present Jewish religion, a rabbi has this to say:

“Kabbalah is very explicit about the negative spiritual side-effects of masturbation. The idea is as follows: Your seed is the material by which you procreate; it is the genetic material within you that allows you the opportunity to partner with G-d. When we let human seed go to waste, we squander G-d’s sacred and divine potential”
(http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=237&o=53)






While the Jehovah’s witnesses have this to say:

Watchtower 1976 February 15 pp.122-3 You Must Be Holy Because Jehovah Is Holy

“15 In recent years, homosexuality has swept the world. These homosexuals claim that they are ‘bringing it out of the closet’ and they brag by saying, ‘We are proud to be such.’ It was apparent that this erosion of moral standards could pose a danger or threat for God’s holy people, so the congregations were alerted and wrongdoers were cleaned out. Likewise, unclean practices, such as masturbation, which can be a steppingstone to homosexuality, have been dealt with in a serious, yet understanding…”

(http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/index.php/watchtower_quotes/sexual-matters/masturbation/)



Sin is defined in the Bible as transgression of the law.

(1 John 3:4) “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Everything unrighteous is a sin.

(1 John 5:17) “All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

It is a known fact and scientifically accepted that every normal human person experiences occasional lust of the flesh. Even the apostles of Christ testify to this.

(James 1:14) “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.”

Sexual urges in humans is but as natural as experiencing hunger, thirst, tiredness, etc. It is one of the most important processes in the human body. This feeling is moderated by God’s laws and statutes among His people, like the Israelites, because this is God’s instrument in the process of procreation. The Lord killed Onan when he did not obey God’s law to raise seed for his brother who died, and spilled it on the ground.

(Genesis 38:8-10) “And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.”

Onan did not masturbate, as others claim. He lied with his brother’s wife to enjoy the pleasure of sex, but at the point of orgasm, he spilled it to the ground in utter defiance of God’s commandment. So, he was condemned to death.

Frankly speaking, most men (and women), if not all, masturbate — especially those without sexual partners. Even those with sexual partners, like husbands and wife do masturbate also, when situations do not allow them to have sexual intercourse; like when a woman is with her ‘monthly visit’ or pregnant and about to deliver her baby. In a clinic, a man is required by a doctor to masturbate when having a physical check up and evaluation in his capacity to bear children.

In the Biblical sense of righteousness, these situations can not be considered as sin. If a married man or woman, a bachelor, or a spinster, do masturbate to refrain from doing evil or infidelity to his or her partner, are you going to consider it a sin?

(1 Corinthians 7:29; 31) “But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none…”

“…And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.”

Scientifically, there is also evil in too much indulgence in everything we do to our body. Overindulgence in eating, drinking, etc. will cause us to sin and scientifically will eventually cause diseases in our bodies (http://www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/Feat/ACF2F0E.cfm&pub_id=8&article_id=45.)

Gluttony is being condemned by the Bible.

(Proverbs 23:20) “Be not among winebibbers, or among gluttonous eaters of meat…”RSV

Overindulgence in masturbation poses psychological and physiological imbalances. (http://www.herballove.com/library/resource/overmas/fatal.asp)

Scientifically, there are benefits of regular, and not overindulging,in masturbation. In recent study, researchers say that They found those who had ejaculated the most between the ages of 20 and 50 were the least likely to develop the cancer. They say that men who ejaculated more than five times a week were a third less likely to develop prostate cancer later in life. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3072021.stm)

I do not recommend masturbation to anybody, neither do I encourage anybody to make it a scapegoat of their immoral sexual addictions, but I will not judge nor condemn anybody that because of force of circumstances, and not with evil mind, is doing the act. God judges according to the intents of the heart!

(Jeremiah 17:9-10) “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”

Sins committed by a Christian due to the ‘weakness’ of his flesh is pardonable under God’s mercy.

(Galatians 6:1) “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.”

It is better to marry than to be burned.

(1 Corinthians 7:9) “But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.” RSV

May the Lord teach your heart of the proper things to do through His words in the Bible.

God Bless.


[url="http://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/05/27/masturbation-to-sin-or-not-to-sin/"]http://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/05/27/m...-or-not-to-sin/[/url]


Thanks and God bless! Have a fruitful lenten season to everybody.

Edited April 8, 2009 by marccatholic

[Thy Geekdom Come]

If you want a discussion, this is really a topic for Transmundane Lane. I'm tranferring the thread.

God bless,

Micah

[saintwannabe 777]

So you don't believe masturbation to be a sin?

[Ziggamafu]

So you're looking for a way out of feeling guilty?

I can't prove this, but I suspect everyone feels a little less happy after masturbation. It is up to the individual person to probe the question of whether or not one is feeling guilt. Christ is God; Christ founded an authoritative Church; that Church understands masturbation to be gravely sinful. Case closed.

Now if you want to move on to something with a bit more to consider, such as culpability...that would be an issue with a bit more substance.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1830282' date='Apr 9 2009, 07:47 PM']So you're looking for a way out of feeling guilty?

I can't prove this, but I suspect everyone feels a little less happy after masturbation. It is up to the individual person to probe the question of whether or not one is feeling guilt. Christ is God; Christ founded an authoritative Church; that Church understands masturbation to be gravely sinful. Case closed.

Now if you want to move on to something with a bit more to consider, such as culpability...that would be an issue with a bit more substance.[/quote]

Attaboy Zigs!

[marccatholic]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1830366' date='Apr 9 2009, 09:47 PM']Attaboy Zigs![/quote]


Hi! Thanks for the reply. Ahmmm. Honestly, I do not practice this male stuff. I considered it really a mortal sin and I am consistent with that especially when I am giving pieces of advice to a friend who likes doing it very much.


Of course I am no theologian here nor an expert of any religious matters that's why I decided to ask all of you if what was really the stand of the catholic church in this and how would you react the article of this non-catholic brother. Does it give a new concept or shall I say some realities and truths which are really not given attention by many men? I would like to see how would you give rebuttals or even agreements, any significant insights, etc. that can shed light in this topic. Thanks and God bless!

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='marccatholic' post='1830886' date='Apr 10 2009, 01:03 PM']Hi! Thanks for the reply. Ahmmm. Honestly, I do not practice this male stuff. I considered it really a mortal sin and I am consistent with that especially when I am giving pieces of advice to a friend who likes doing it very much.


Of course I am no theologian here nor an expert of any religious matters that's why I decided to ask all of you if what was really the stand of the catholic church in this and how would you react the article of this non-catholic brother. Does it give a new concept or shall I say some realities and truths which are really not given attention by many men? I would like to see how would you give rebuttals or even agreements, any significant insights, etc. that can shed light in this topic. Thanks and God bless![/quote]

Sorry if my post seemed rude or directed at you. I realize reading it now, that it could be taken the wrong way. It is a horrible sin, because in masturbation, you are defiling the temple of the Holy Spirit and sexual sins are sins totally against God. If you are looking at pornography while doing this, you transform the other person into an object.

[Ziggamafu]

Marriage is a sacrament; all sexual capacities are supposed to demonstrate the image intended by marriage. The image is that of Christ as the groom and the Church as his bride. In the perfected and holy eternity of Heaven, does Christ or the Church ever turn their focus inward? No, Christ and the Church only pour themselves out toward one another in a total and complete self-giving; perfect charity. Thus, masturbation is wrong along the same levels of contraception; both are actions which frustrate the image of a fruitful, procreative, wholly outward-focused, mutual self-giving.

[Saint Therese]

Yay another thread about masturbation.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1830282' date='Apr 9 2009, 08:47 PM']So you're looking for a way out of feeling guilty?

I can't prove this, but I suspect everyone feels a little less happy after masturbation. It is up to the individual person to probe the question of whether or not one is feeling guilt. Christ is God; Christ founded an authoritative Church; that Church understands masturbation to be gravely sinful. Case closed.

Now if you want to move on to something with a bit more to consider, such as culpability...that would be an issue with a bit more substance.[/quote]There is guilt in every compulsive behavior. Masturbation can be a compulsive behavior, but usually it is not. Most people who masturbate do so occasionally and willingly. In my opinion, it's comparable to drinking alcohol. It's not very good in itself, although it has some immediate virtues, and it can become a dangerous addiction. But in a mentally healthy subject, with varied fields of interest and a good lifestyle, drinking alcohol occasionally does add to your quality of life (because beer is so good ).

Masturbation is similar. No adverse effects, either psychological or physical have been demonstrated, except in cases of compulsive behavior. But then, one should adress the cause of the compulsive behavior (boredom, low self-esteem, etc.) rather than the symptoms.

I think calling it a matter of "grave sin" is nothing else than long-outdated psychology. Worse, it's harmful as it imprisons teenagers in a cycle of unnecessary guilt (as teenagers are all subject to a masturbative tendency). Will God really send someone to hell because he has masturbated and not repented ? I think Jesus would shiver at the very idea.

Now about sex being essentially altruistic; it's nice in the wording, but really, I think modern biology and psychology are in a better position to tell us what's harmful and what's good in terms of our sexuality.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Innocent]

DR_Asik,

Welcome to Phatmass! And to the Church! (Since it seems from your profile that you're going to enter the Church soon.)


[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1831635' date='Apr 11 2009, 12:34 PM']I think calling it a matter of "grave sin" is nothing else than long-outdated psychology. Worse, it's harmful as it imprisons teenagers in a cycle of unnecessary guilt (as teenagers are all subject to a masturbative tendency). Will God really send someone to hell because he has masturbated and not repented ? I think Jesus would shiver at the very idea.[/quote]

Grave matter cannot cease being what it is, but culpability is another issue. Even if one had reduced culpability regarding masturbation, it is still a grave matter, and no one can deny that conquering the habit goes a long way in helping a teenager mature spiritually and develop virtue.

Passions are strong in youth, true. All the more reason that they learn that it is necessary to conquer them.

The guilt you speak about is not the whole picture, certainly. The teenager can also experience a foretaste of the satisfaction of the adult virtuous life each time he successfully restrains his urges.

Anyway, the moral climate today is almost totally guilt-free. Are you really sure that today's teenagers are going to be trapped in a cycle of guilt as you say? I'm not convinced, but since I cannot generalise about teenagers, I'll not press the point.


Also this is a good way for a Catholic teenager to understand many things:

1. That God's standards are very high.
2. Our fallen nature.
3. God's mercy.
4. The power of God's grace.
5. The great struggle involved in acting according to right reason.

This is a good training for a teenager to do a tough task, and to depend on God for the strength to do it and not get discouraged - this is something everyone must learn sooner or later, or suffer for it in life. Better learn the practice of abandonment to Divine Providence when one is young and there is less to unlearn.


[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1831635' date='Apr 11 2009, 12:34 PM']Now about sex being essentially altruistic; it's nice in the wording, but really, I think modern biology and psychology are in a better position to tell us what's harmful and what's good in terms of our sexuality.[/quote]

In the end, it comes down to the Trilemma. If Jesus was Lord, then He knew what he was talking about when he equated lust to adultery. Also, His promise to uphold the Church and protect Her teaching from error holds good. In that case, it is inevitable that even when data is taken from modern biology and psychology, it must be sub-ordinated to the judgement of the Church and the Church still has the last word on the morality of human acts.

If, on the other hand, Jesus was not Lord, and if thereby Christ is not the true meaning of what it is to be human, and if thus the Magisterium is also not protected from error in matters of faith and morals, then of course, we should look to other places to understand what man is.

But I don't see how we can have it both ways - both a Church established by God and other sources of moral judgement that make the Church's teaching obsolete.

[Dr_Asik]

Hi Innocent, thanks for the kind welcome. About my entering the Catholic Church, it would be more of a re-enter since I've been Catholic for most of my life until recently. That would call for its own topic though.

[quote]Grave matter cannot cease being what it is, but culpability is another issue. Even if one had reduced culpability regarding masturbation, it is still a grave matter, and no one can deny that conquering the habit goes a long way in helping a teenager mature spiritually and develop virtue.[/quote]Masturbation is intrinsically a grave matter, but drinking alcohol is not. But this doesn't make sense. What causes deaths, and broken families, and violence, and despair, and suicide every day all around the world? What ruins friendships, causes accidents on the road, hamper judgment? Masturbation is nothing in comparison, even when compulsive. Yet it's "intrinsically a grave matter". Does that make any sense? I'm all for drinking alcohol in moderation, by the way. And, with similar logic, masturbating as one sees fit. Masturbation even has its virtues. Many priests are treated for prostate problems. This is actually a Catholic priest who told me that. It's more natural for a man to experience orgasm at least from time to time. It relieves tension, both physical and psychological.

Sure, it's a poor experience compared to sexual intercourse, but then so is eating fast-food compared to a real meal. Being poor doesn't make an act "intrinsically evil".

[quote]Passions are strong in youth, true. All the more reason that they learn that it is necessary to conquer them.[/quote]But warring against the masturbative tendency is pointless. It naturally occurs, and it naturally disappears with maturity (which doesn't mean one necessarily stops masturbating altogether, but at least it becomes less of an urge). Not only is it pointless, but again, it induces guilt where it's unnecessary and one has little control.

It's much better to accept yourself as you are and direct your interests towards things other than your immature sexuality. Make friends, get into sports, a chess club, music, etc. As long as you feel loved and have varied interests, in time you'll all but forget you've ever had a tendency towards masturbation and realize you've become an adult, free and strong. And if you masturbate from time to time, what harm does it do to anyone, including yourself? The only harm it does is the one you inflict on yourself by thinking it some grave offense against God.

[quote]Anyway, the moral climate today is almost totally guilt-free.[/quote]I disagree. Eat something fat ? bad, you'll die of heart disease. Smoke ? bad, you'll die of a billion million different diseases at the same time. Have "unprotected" sex ? bad, you're putting yourself and your partner in danger. Eat meat ? bad, vegetables are more eco-friendly. Hold hands with another guy ? bad, that's for gays. Believe in God ? bad, that's for retards. Drink alcohol ? bad, you've just increased your chances of getting cancer by 5 - 20%. Society is just as restrictive as it ever was, the restrictions have just changed places. If you don't conform to the current social mold, you'll be repressed in various subtle and pernicious ways, just like it always have been.


[quote]Also this is a good way for a Catholic teenager to understand many things:

1. That God's standards are very high.
2. Our fallen nature.
3. God's mercy.
4. The power of God's grace.
5. The great struggle involved in acting according to right reason.

This is a good training for a teenager to do a tough task, and to depend on God for the strength to do it and not get discouraged - this is something everyone must learn sooner or later, or suffer for it in life. Better learn the practice of abandonment to Divine Providence when one is young and there is less to unlearn.[/quote]Speaking from personal experience, I really don't believe in any of that. Teenagers typically feel rejected and incompetent. They need to realize, not that they have a "fallen nature", which just adds oil to the fire, but that with perseverance they can be successful in life just like everyone else. They need to realize, not that God is merciful, but that their parents and those who care about them are merciful. God is not a shelter for your personal problems. If you think others reject you, learn to accept their pardon. If you have trouble accepting yourself, learn that you are just as good as any other and you're going through a normal although difficult part of your life. "The power of God's grace." Don't make me laugh. God's grace is the most indefinable and imaginary thing. It doesn't help to think some mystical force will help you get out of your misery. You need to make the efforts needed to get out of it, and once you've succeeded, you should be proud of yourself and think you have proved yourself, not that you're still as shitty as ever but that in His immense (and arbitrary) mercy, God gave you some support.

A teenager needs to build self-esteem and trying to force through his skull a theory that he's of a fallen nature and he'll never get out of it, but God will through his mercy give him the supernatural power to do something good out is life, is not a recipe for success. A teenager needs to learn to believe in himself.

[quote]In the end, it comes down to the Trilemma. If Jesus was Lord, then He knew what he was talking about when he equated lust to adultery. Also, His promise to uphold the Church and protect Her teaching from error holds good. In that case, it is inevitable that even when data is taken from modern biology and psychology, it must be sub-ordinated to the judgment of the Church and the Church still has the last word on the morality of human acts.[/quote]He did not equate lust to adultery. He said "whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery in his heart." Obviously, committing "adultery in your heart" isn't equivalent to committing adultery plain and simple, otherwise there wouldn't be any stable marriages at all: any time your spouse would catch you looking at another woman, she would say you've cheated her and leave. Jesus also said "But I say unto you, whoever has hatred in his heart has already committed murder." Should we jail people who have hatred in their hearts ? This is ridiculous.

Jesus wanted to say two things :
- The origin of all evil is in the heart (as opposed to external "impurities" like the jews believed)
- Don't think yourself too holy just because you've not commited this or that sin (like when he said "he who is without sin, shall throw the first stone").

[Dr_Asik]

Also you guys should read at least [url="http://www.chmed.com/mod.php?mod=userpage&menu=1907&page_id=142&PHPSESSID=a76dc0f6fb1882506f5666b63fb98062"]this[/url] and [url="http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/ohe/library/Sexhealth/articles/masturbating.htm"]this[/url]. Also I have a book called "Sexualité et foi" by Guy Durand. (Sexuality and faith) that is very thorough on all these kinds of issues and strives to present the contemporary Church doctrine in the best possible light. The author is unable to link occasional masturbation to any harm other than in a figurative form ("Sex should be out-centered, masturbation is not). So there you have it. "Grave matter".

Edited April 11, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1831923' date='Apr 11 2009, 06:15 PM']Masturbation is intrinsically a grave matter, but drinking alcohol is not. But this doesn't make sense. What causes deaths, and broken families, and violence, and despair, and suicide every day all around the world? What ruins friendships, causes accidents on the road, hamper judgment? Masturbation is nothing in comparison, even when compulsive. Yet it's "intrinsically a grave matter". Does that make any sense? I'm all for drinking alcohol in moderation, by the way. And, with similar logic, masturbating as one sees fit. Masturbation even has its virtues. Many priests are treated for prostate problems. This is actually a Catholic priest who told me that. It's more natural for a man to experience orgasm at least from time to time. It relieves tension, both physical and psychological.[/quote]
Yes, I'd say that it does make sense, actually. Yes, alcohol is abused, and this is a sin, but when used correctly, according to its intended purpose, it is not bad. I am not speaking of health benefits; those are simply an added bonus. By contrast, the reason masturbation is intrinsically a grave matter, and intrinsically sinful is because it frustrates the purpose of our sexuality. It misuses our sexuality. Any medical "benefits" don't matter, since it is intrinsically sinful. I think the CCC says it better, so I will quote them here. [quote]2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139[/quote]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1831923' date='Apr 11 2009, 06:15 PM']Sure, it's a poor experience compared to sexual intercourse, but then so is eating fast-food compared to a real meal. Being poor doesn't make an act "intrinsically evil".[/quote] Being a poor experience in comparison to actual intercourse isn't what makes it sinful. It is that it is circumventing both the unitive and procreative purposes of sex.

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1831923' date='Apr 11 2009, 06:15 PM']But warring against the masturbative tendency is pointless. It naturally occurs, and it naturally disappears with maturity (which doesn't mean one necessarily stops masturbating altogether, but at least it becomes less of an urge). Not only is it pointless, but again, it induces guilt where it's unnecessary and one has little control.[/quote] Pointless? We are not to be slaves of our own passion/appetites/urges. This is one reason we fast, in fact. It can be difficult, sure, but with God all things are possible.

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1831923' date='Apr 11 2009, 06:15 PM']And if you masturbate from time to time, what harm does it do to anyone, including yourself?[/quote] Yes, I would argue that it does do harm. Both to the person engaging in it, and potentially to his/her spouse by separating sex from its unitive and procreative purposes and making it just about the immediate feelings.

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1831923' date='Apr 11 2009, 06:15 PM']Speaking from personal experience, I really don't believe in any of that. Teenagers typically feel rejected and incompetent. They need to realize, not that they have a "fallen nature", which just adds oil to the fire, but that with perseverance they can be successful in life just like everyone else. They need to realize, not that God is merciful, but that their parents and those who care about them are merciful. God is not a shelter for your personal problems. If you think others reject you, learn to accept their pardon. If you have trouble accepting yourself, learn that you are just as good as any other and you're going through a normal although difficult part of your life. "The power of God's grace." Don't make me laugh. God's grace is the most indefinable and imaginary thing. It doesn't help to think some mystical force will help you get out of your misery. You need to make the efforts needed to get out of it, and once you've succeeded, you should be proud of yourself and think you have proved yourself, not that you're still as shitty as ever but that in His immense (and arbitrary) mercy, God gave you some support.

A teenager needs to build self-esteem and trying to force through his skull a theory that he's of a fallen nature and he'll never get out of it, but God will through his mercy give him the supernatural power to do something good out is life, is not a recipe for success. A teenager needs to learn to believe in himself.[/quote]
Perhaps I'm misreading you, but it seems to be a false dichotomy to say that teenager needs to know their parents are merciful, but doesn't need to know that God is merciful. Both should be taught. Perseverance alone can't always help, and indeed can make one feel like a failure when they succumb again to temptation (speaking from personal experience). God's grace can indeed give us the strength we need to "go and sin no more", as Jesus told the woman about to be stoned (again, personal experience). This doesn't mean that we just sit back and let God do everything, but that we realise we need His help to succeed.

Anyway, my input, bearing in mind that I'm not a theologian or Church scholar. If I am mistaken in what I've posted and/or misrepresented the Church teachings on the matter, I welcome correction. God bless.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1831957' date='Apr 11 2009, 03:31 PM']Yes, I'd say that it does make sense, actually. Yes, alcohol is abused, and this is a sin, but when used correctly, according to its intended purpose, it is not bad. I am not speaking of health benefits; those are simply an added bonus. By contrast, the reason masturbation is intrinsically a grave matter, and intrinsically sinful is because it frustrates the purpose of our sexuality. It misuses our sexuality. Any medical "benefits" don't matter, since it is intrinsically sinful.[/quote]But that's wishy-washy logic. One could easily argue that alcohol defeats the purpose of drinking, since we drink in order to hydrate ourselves, but alcohol dehydrates; and we eat in order to sustain ourselves, but alcohol is toxic.

No, really, we drink alcohol not because it has anything to do with the purpose of drinking or eating, but because it tastes and feels very good, and it helps spending a pleasant evening with friends by removing a fraction of our inhibitions and timidity.

And we masturbate not because it has anything to do with sexual intercourse, but because it feels good and relieves tension.

And again, if it was "grave matter" then doing it should have some negative consequences other than in a figurative sense.

[quote]Pointless? We are not to be slaves of our own passion/appetites/urges. This is one reason we fast, in fact. It can be difficult, sure, but with God all things are possible.[/quote]Unless it's a compulsive behavior, masturbation doesn't make you a slave.

[quote]Yes, I would argue that it does do harm. Both to the person engaging in it, and potentially to his/her spouse by separating sex from its unitive and procreative purposes and making it just about the immediate feelings.[/quote]Sure, it can mean boredom or insatisfaction in the couple, so in any case they should talk about it. But if they both accept it, there's no harm to the relation. It doesn't prevent them from having very fulfilling sexual intercourse, on the contrary it might help by allowing them to know better what they find exciting and what they don't.

[quote]Perhaps I'm misreading you, but it seems to be a false dichotomy to say that teenager needs to know their parents are merciful, but doesn't need to know that God is merciful. Both should be taught. Perseverance alone can't always help, and indeed can make one feel like a failure when they succumb again to temptation (speaking from personal experience). God's grace can indeed give us the strength we need to "go and sin no more", as Jesus told the woman about to be stoned (again, personal experience). This doesn't mean that we just sit back and let God do everything, but that we realise we need His help to succeed.[/quote]Well sure let them know that God is merciful, but teens don't feel rejected by God, they feel rejected by their parents and society. If you tell them that the love of God is all that matters, you're creating them a sort of mental sheltar where they feel accepted when they're still as immature and socially incompetent as they ever will be.

On perseverance vs God's grace; I've waited too long for God's grace. In the end, I was always the one who willed and acted, and when I "abandoned myself", nothing happened. At best, it's some kind of supernaturally infused optimism. In my opinion, it's nothing else than wishful thinking.