Masturbation Ii

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1833612' date='Apr 13 2009, 02:21 AM']in my humble opionon i dont think no 1 should beat themselves up over it.
just confess it and recieve the forgiveness and the grace God will give.
that was the misconception i had about confession, like the priest was going to give me **** or you know, make me feel stupid or talk down to me.
and this has never been the case not even once. and for that im very gratefull for confession and realise how lucky i am to be able to exercise this sacrament.[/quote]Yeah but when you confess, you're supposed to have the "sincere desire to amend your life", so you can't confess a grave sin every week and not do anything about it. And short of taking a resolution to stop masturbating, there's not much to be done about it.

[Guest]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1833626' date='Apr 13 2009, 01:28 AM']Yeah but when you confess, you're supposed to have the "sincere desire to amend your life", so you can't confess a grave sin every week and not do anything about it. And short of taking a resolution to stop masturbating, there's not much to be done about it.[/quote]

ya but i do have a sincere desire to ammend my life but im not perfect and will never be perfect in this life. sure im to strive to be perfect because my Father is perfect. but i know i wont be in this life because im a wretched sinner.

although what ive learned through phatmass is how everytime i go to confession God makes me whole and pure again. God knows your heart just becasue you fall over and over again doesnt mean you are just playing games with HIM.

and again i will admit i am very selfish and prolly do not do enough to stop sinning. so im guility of this and need to continue to grow but still that is no reason not to go to confession. it's a grace and a grace i cannot live without anymore. i've lived without it to long and i wont go back.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Guest

[Innocent]

Hi, Asik!


[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1833158' date='Apr 13 2009, 07:56 AM']Hi Aloysius,

You present a challenging and interesting theory. May I ask you what your sources are? I did a quick Google search on oxytocin and didn’t find anything in support of your thesis. Wikipedia’s article states that “The relationship between oxytocin and human sexual response is unclear.” Microsoft Encarta states the functions of oxytocin are simply "Triggers contraction of the uterus during labor; Stimulates milk letdown for breast-feeding after childbirth".

Also, this doesn’t seem a mainstream theory since masturbation is generally seen as harmless by medicine.[/quote]

You will be able to get a lot of information on this subject if you search the web for key words like sex addiction, dopamine, delta FosB, oxyticin.

However, some sources are not very trustworthy and the research on this area as a whole is still a developing field.

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1833158' date='Apr 13 2009, 07:56 AM']Finally, you don’t take into account that an essential part of masturbation is fantasies. If one is missing a sexual partner during orgasm, the social emotions will be projected on an imaginary person, not on the subject as you mentioned.[/quote]

And according to Wendy and Larry Maltz, this projection of bonding upon an unreal entity itself is a psychological problem. They discuss this in their book, [url="http://www.amazon.com/Porn-Trap-Essential-Overcoming-Pornography/dp/006123186X"]The Porn Trap.[/url]

Also, cases of masturbation with no sexual fantasy involved do exist, though I have no idea of how rare or common those are.

Since, as you said, fantasy is a part of masturbation often, it also leads to the second problem of unchaste thoughts.


[quote]So what you’re saying is that masturbation is only wrong for the faithful? It’s harmless in nature, but it’s incompatible with faith? Somehow, I have a hard time believing that. I might be excessively positivist, but I’ve seen most of Catholic moral teachings to be in continuity with natural law and not ritual or otherwise arbitrary restrictions.[/quote]

I apologise for my incorrect wording. What I meant was: That Masturbation is wrong is of course part of natural law. (It certainly can't be a discipline of the Church alone!) But its effect is not so easily studied with full accuracy. Thus when Christ in revelation talked about lust the Church interprets that part of Scripture to form the teaching that Masturbation is grave matter. So it's like a "short cut" across a poorly lit patch of Natural Law. For those outside the Church in Invincible Ignorance, it's quite possible that there is reduced culpability.

That's the way I understand it. I shall correct myself if I learn that my understanding of the teaching of the Church and it's relation to Natural Law here is not accurate.


[quote]I don’t have any difficulty admitting that a withdrawal therapy might involve cutting all use of sexual fantasies including masturbation.[/quote]

As an aside, an interesting tidbit is of information that another similar organisation, [url="http://www.saahelp.com/"]Sex Addicts Anonymous[/url] does not require the member in recovery to give up masturbation, though they do think it is a good idea.

[quote]That doesn’t make much sense to me. If there’s no problem with having an orgasm outside the marital embrace, why would there be any problem wanting it?[/quote]

Again, I apologise for my unclear wording. What I meant was that there's no problem with involuntary or unconscious orgasm outside marriage. Since the person was not conscious the will cannot be said to have been involved, and sin is in the will, not merely in a biological action.

There is, of course, a problem with voluntary sexual gratification outside marriage. That is not okay.

And finally, what's the guarantee that the urge for self-gratification will go away as one grows older? It's assumed that the urge reduces. Perhaps it does reduce in most of the cases, but the fact also remains that it does not reduce in a significant number of cases.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1832047' date='Apr 11 2009, 03:20 PM']To be blunt, it is not the majority opinion that matters. It is not my opinion that matters, either. The Church has spoken on this, has taught infallibly on this, and that is what matters. I do, of course, think it behoves all Catholics to learn the reasoning behind the teaching. Christopher West's books are very helpful in that area, in my personal opinion and experience.[/quote]

Yes!

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1832182' date='Apr 11 2009, 06:05 PM']Humanae Vitae is infaillible ? That's just a word. No one cares about Humanae Vitae. The attitude of the Catholic Church with Humanae Vitae is exactly that of the scribes and doctors Jesus denounced. It's not what comes in or out of us that makes us impure, it's what lies in our heart. If you wear a condom you're not Catholic ? Because the Church said you can't and if you reject one particular moral precept you don't have faith in the Church? That's all very logical, indeed. The scribes and doctors were very logical about intepreting the law of Moses too, and the law of Moses was from God. Although I thought the coming of Christ marked the end of those heartless, overly strict morals, based on nothing but words and ignoring the reality. To hear some in the Church today, it seems we're still where we were 2000 years ago.

A nice day to ya.[/quote]

no no no...

I guess premarital sex between two God loving Christians would be ok too? Jesus never condemned the law - he condemned the Pharisees that followed the law only externally. That doesn't mean theres a problem with the law in any way. It means that one must follow the law both practically and with ones heart.

The Church has said that all sexual acts must be both procreative and unitive. It is this basis that all sexual morality stems from.

[Aloysius]

[b]my emphasis[/b] and [color="#FF0000"][comments][/color]:
[quote]...They did a study on a group of men who were given either a dose of oxytocin or a placebo. [b]Oxytocin is a chemical that is released in men and women during orgasm.[/b]
...
This study observed that oxytocin made positive words related to sex and relationships more accessible relative to the placebo condition. Other words (including words for positive emotions) were not influenced. This finding suggests that oxytocin release will make it easier for men to act in a positive and loving way toward their sexual partners. This study was done only with men, but similar kinds of results have been obtained with women as well.

So, it is important to recognize that [b]sex plays an important role in strengthening relationships[/b][color="#FF0000"] [because of the oxytocin][/color]...[/quote]
[url="http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/200901/good-sex-is-good-relationships-oxytocin-and-relationships"]http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulte...d-relationships[/url]

[quote]Recent studies have begun to investigate oxytocin's role in various behaviors, including [b]social recognition, bonding,[/b] anxiety, [b]trust[/b], and maternal behaviors.[color="#FF0000"][I know, it's wikipedia, but I have heard this from trusted sources, I'm not sure I can find them right now though][/color][/quote]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin[/url]

[quote]Oxytocin is a hormone produced naturally in the hypothalamus in the brain. Studies have shown that oxytocin is associated with our ability to mediate emotional experiences in close relationships and maintain healthy psychological boundaries.

In studies with non-human mammals, oxytocin has been shown to promote nest building and pup retrieval, acceptance of adopted offspring, and [b]the formation of adult pair-bonds.[/b]
This important hormone is naturally released in response to a variety of environmental stimuli including [b]skin-to-skin contact[/b] [color="#FF0000"][skin to skin sexual contact includes masturbation but not nocturnal emission][/color], uterine or cervical stimulation during sex, nipple stimulation in lactating women, and as the result of a baby moving down the birth canal.[/quote][url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Is+love+a+biochemical+by-product%3F+Oxytocin+explains+the+importance+of+foreplay+and+may+even+show+that+women+in+committed+relationships+have+better+sex!%22&btnG=Search"]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%...amp;btnG=Search[/url][color="#FF0000"]did not directly link due to soft-core pic in article, click link from google at own risk[/color]

[quote]However, epinephrine increased during sexual arousal and masturbation, and peaked during orgasm (>100% increase), with an immediate postorgasmic decline to basal levels (Fig. 2) [color="#FF0000"][in regular intercourse there was no such immediate decline][/color][/quote]pg. 61, pdf file: [url="http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/177/1/57.pdf"]http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/...nt/177/1/57.pdf[/url]


[quote]Research indicates that prolactin increases following orgasm are involved in a feedback loop that serves to decrease arousal through inhibitory central dopaminergic and probably peripheral processes. The magnitude of post-orgasmic prolactin increase is thus a neurohormonal index of sexual satiety. Using data from three studies of men and women engaging in masturbation or penile-vaginal intercourse to orgasm in the laboratory, we report that for both sexes (adjusted for prolactin changes in a non-sexual control condition), the magnitude of prolactin increase following intercourse is 400% greater than that following masturbation. The results are interpreted as an indication of intercourse being more physiologically satisfying than masturbation, and discussed in light of prior research reporting greater physiological and psychological benefits associated with coitus than with any other sexual activities.[/quote]
[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16095799?dopt=Abstract"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16095799?dopt=Abstract[/url]
[color="#FF0000"]the previous two quotes are the physiological basis for the down feeling that occurs after masturbation, the latter one proves that masturbation is not a satisfactory act which can keep one from fornication but, on the contrary, will lead one to be unable to control their sexual appetite and not be satisfied physiologically by the masturbation[/color]

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1833158' date='Apr 12 2009, 10:26 PM']Finally, you don’t take into account that an essential part of masturbation is fantasies. If one is missing a sexual partner during orgasm, the social emotions will be projected on an imaginary person, not on the subject as you mentioned.[/quote]
you are correct to say that the oxytocin social attachment will be lived out through fantasies and applied to imaginary persons. This was the exact basis of why St. John Cassian labeled his 8 deadly sins, including lust, as deadly sins: because they draw the person within themselves and away from the true nature of reality. social attachments to imaginary persons (who always give one what they want) are BAD things because they detach people from reality and, in addition to detracting from their ability to create good physiological social relationships, make them more self-centered in the real relationships they have, wanting to have every desire of theirs enacted by real life friends and mates. this is something noted in the spiritual sense in the 4th century by St. John Cassian, and proved biochemically in the sociological and psychological sense in the 20th century.

nota bene: I do intend to provide more sources to prove the unhealthy way in which masturbation affects oxytocin, norepinephrine, and prolactin levels in the brain... one must piece these things together from the pure facts of the social scientists (psychologists and/or sociologists) who study these things because you won't see this in their conclusions, because one's conclusions are always determined by one's philosophy... which is why the conclusion is that masturbation is healthy because the philosophy demands it, not the facts... the facts are made to serve their own purpose; I must dig out their facts and show how they also are very very able to serve our purpose and, I think, they do so more consistently.

[Innocent]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1833158' date='Apr 13 2009, 07:56 AM']Finally, you don’t take into account that an essential part of masturbation is fantasies. If one is missing a sexual partner during orgasm, the social emotions will be projected on an imaginary person, not on the subject as you mentioned.[/quote]

Actually, I am a bit surprised that you admitted this, since it undermines your position somewhat. I was expecting that you would say that it is quite possible to masturbate without fantasies and so it's just a merely physical act, &c, &c.

Masturbation with accompaniment of fantasies leads to the building up of a mental harem of ever-ready always willing fantasy females (reduced to their sexuality and not seen as complete persons.) How mentally healthy is that? What guarantee that this is going to suddenly end when one grows into adulthood? Is it not common these days for people to live in a kind of extended immature adolescence even after 20?

And another important possibility is escalation. Soon the usual somewhat tame fantasies are not as arousing as before. The person has got used to them. At this stage, it's quite likely that the person will search for more explicit raw material for fantasies by looking for pornography. And in today's internet age, it's not necessary to visit the seedy neighbourhood adult video store. A teenager can get more and more explicit porn (for free, too!) over a couple of days on the internet that his father could ever have got in his entire lifetime.

Now, if the above person is told, "Masturbation is perfectly Okay," he will think, "When I masturbate, I fantasise. If that's okay, then looking at others' fantasies recorded on film is okay, too. What's wrong in getting hold of some movie that will help me create more enjoyable fantasies?"

He may not have so clear a syllogism in his mind, but that train of thought is surely vaguely present in his mind.

Now, it's less likely that a teenager who understands something about lust and tries to develop self-control will easily give in to the temptation to watch pornography.

[Innocent]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1834047' date='Apr 14 2009, 03:42 AM']nota bene: I do intend to provide more sources to prove the unhealthy way in which masturbation affects oxytocin, norepinephrine, and prolactin levels in the brain...[/quote]

That's a rather good job you've done already! One suggestion, Aloysius: Also look for material regarding the effect of delta FosB on sexual addiction.

[tinytherese]

I don't know how much this will help but it may. This website is utterly amazing!!! And these chastity speakers, Jason and Crystalina Evert (not to mention their co-chastity speakers listed on the chastity website) have changed the lives of so many teens without making them feel ashamed of themselves but showing them that there is a better way, there is hope, that to quote Jason Evert from he and his wife's t.v. show The Pure Life on EWTN, "God's vision for human love is everything that the human heart longs for." It's the [b]new [/b][i][/i][u][/u]sexual revolution.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xab6nnIAxI&feature=PlayList&p=AC031F08539AFD48&index=0&playnext=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xab6nnIAxI...&playnext=1[/url]


[url="http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&cat=Pornography,%20etc"]http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php...nography,%20etc[/url].


You wanna really be free, free to love as God wants us to love check out Theology of the Body.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbzoE3bdudc&feature=PlayList&p=0F366AD96E6B8FC1&index=0&playnext=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbzoE3bdudc...&playnext=1[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdb36VxMu2M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdb36VxMu2M[/url]

One other phatmasser and I discuss masturbation in this facebook group.

[url="http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=29191034554&ref=mf"]http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.p...4554&ref=mf[/url]

Edited April 14, 2009 by tinytherese

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1833626' date='Apr 13 2009, 02:28 AM']Yeah but when you confess, you're supposed to have the "sincere desire to amend your life", so you can't confess a grave sin every week and not do anything about it. And short of taking a resolution to stop masturbating, there's not much to be done about it.[/quote]

Yes, you can confess graves sins every week and should as often as possible. Addiction reduces the culpability of the sin and many people find themselves addicted to masturbation and pornography. In more serious cases a real Catholic psychologist and spiritual director may be needed. Certainly one does not leave real scientific work to pop psychology which follows the whims of whatever is popular at the time.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Brother Adam

[Dr_Asik]

I'm suddenly under a pile of work, this is the end of my semester at univ, so I'll be brief and not answer each comment as I would normally, but I've read them all with great interest and I'm thankful for all of your replies.

Aloysius, thanks for showing what science has said about Oxytocin. As you say, agenda plays a large role in what broad conclusions will be drawn, and while it may be that several scientists try to advocate masturbation, it's obvious your agenda is to defend the Church's doctrine. Although I'm not very much convinced, you've at least shown me that one can hold the Catholic pov while holding rather close to empirical studies, although with a (healthy ? perhaps) dose of subjectivity.

Innocent, escalation is well-known for pornography addictions, where the subject will try increasingly "hardcore" material in order to reach always decreasing levels of arousal (similar to hard drugs), but for masturbation in itself, I'm not aware of that. What can happen is that it happens too frequently and the subject doesn't feel in control of that situation ( = compulsive behavior), but I don't think that can be linked to the effectiveness of fantasies decreasing, most probably extreme stress/boredom and the subject tries to compensate through frequent masturbation. Yes maybe there's something analogous to a drug or pornography addiction, but there's much less potential for that.

[tinytherese]

If masturbation is not an addiction than why is it so hard for people to stop doing it?

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1835947' date='Apr 15 2009, 02:57 AM']If masturbation is not an addiction than why is it so hard for people to stop doing it?[/quote]Not everyone is trying to stop doing it; and not everyone who tries to stop finds it hard.

I think masturbation is a strong stress-reliever. But as long as you've got a healthy lifestyle, you should have several different ways of relieving stress : doing sports, taking your time to eat, and eating something good, laughing, etc. If you find that you're relying too much on masturbation, the real problem is your lifestyle and that's what you should address, not masturbation.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1835947' date='Apr 15 2009, 02:57 AM']If masturbation is not an addiction than why is it so hard for people to stop doing it?[/quote]Not everyone is trying to stop doing it; and not everyone who tries to stop finds it hard.

I think masturbation is a strong stress-reliever. But as long as you've got a healthy lifestyle, you should have several different ways of relieving stress : doing sports, taking your time to eat, and eating something good, laughing, etc. If you find that you're relying too much on masturbation, the real problem is your lifestyle and that's what you should address, not masturbation.

[Aloysius]

now, there is more out there, but like you I am busy with work for school... have to complete my undergraduate thesis within the next few weeks so I can't really devote time to the research there. I readily admit that I, like everyone, have a bias in my conclusions (based upon my deductive reasoning based upon sound and time-tested philosophy). but the facts remain what they are. the chemical affect on the brain from masturbation is one which lacks emotional satisfaction, which creates social attachments to imaginary things (and/or to one's own self), and which causes a dependency in the brain upon that chemical release.

I would like to posit one other piece of correlation between human biological nature and the natural law philosophy of the Catholic Church. it may be a bit graphic of a thing to say, so I'll dance around it and just say it outright as straight to the point as possible: the ideal in the Church is that two virgins would marry, often a woman's first time at the marital embrace is painful; men who orgasm infrequently have less sexual endurance on the first time that they do orgasm... consequently, a shorter first time for the woman who may experience pain in the act is accomplished by a man who does not masturbate regularly. the pain is prolonged by one who does masturbate regularly. it seems built into human nature that the 'first time' be short and the subsequent times get longer in duration. this is just one more example of a natural cycle which is subverted when man breaks the natural law and convinces his body that sexual activity has already been regular in the past.

anyway, I would very much argue against masturbation as a stress reliever based upon the neuro-chemical reactions I have described above. the temporary rise in epinephrine with the quick spike down to basal (or, if you read the whole study in that one link, below basal) levels is not a true reliever of stress. now, real actual sex will release stress as those chemical levels stay high for a long time and give you a feeling of true satisfaction; but masturbation never chemically satisfies the brain.

the chemical reactions in the brain mirror a chemical dependency exactly. it is an addiction, and it is very hard to find any man who has ever attempted to stop who claims it's easy to stop. if they claim it was easy to stop, they are either lying to you (and likely are actually still doing it), have some chemical problem, or have been the subject of some extraordinary miracle of God's grace.