Veils?

[azaelia]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1833926' date='Apr 13 2009, 03:59 PM']Please take note of what I said. I said *I* think they are hideous. I didn't say people shouldn't wear them. I also think the color orange is hideous but many people love that color. I don't have to modify anything. If you like the veils, so be it. I don't. No need for you to be personally offended over my personal preferences.[/quote]

You can think whatever you want. Far be it from me to dictate your personal preferences. My issue was not with your opinion, but how you expressed that opinion. "Hideous" is a very strong word. There are far more neutral and sensitive ways of expressing the same idea. For instance, "I don't personally like veils." There's something to be said for consideration.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Moosey' post='1834013' date='Apr 13 2009, 04:52 PM']P.S. a little boy in my parish saw me wearing my veil and asked his dad if I was an [b]"angel"[/b] [/quote] I want an [b]"angel"[/b] to go to mass with me now...

Little kids get to see all the cool stuff...

[Sojourner]

I don't have a problem with women choosing to weir veils or other headcoverings to Mass. I do have a problem with people who want to impose this on those who don't feel the same way. I think it is a beautiful gesture of humility, but it is not one I choose to make for myself.

[Resurrexi]

I think it's nice when women wear veils to Mass

[Aloysius]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1834048' date='Apr 13 2009, 06:12 PM']St. Paul told the Corinthinan women to cover their heads because women in the city left their heads uncovered to let men know they were for sale.[/quote]
I disagree... St. Paul told the Corinthian women to cover their heads because "any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head", because "a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels", and says "Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering."

St. Paul said nothing about modesty necessarily... he said nothing to indicate he thought that those who had their heads uncovered were in any way sexually licentious or being prostitutes. he said they were disgracing their prayer life by unveiling while praying. the explanation that says this is about not looking like a prostitute has no basis in the text itself... if he wanted to say not to look like a prostitute, he wouldn't have said not to pray unveiled; he would've said not to go to the city unveiled, not to go out in public unveiled, basically not to ever try to look like a prostitute or be a prostitute. but he specifies WHILE praying, he specifies BECAUSE of the angels.

I've said a lot in threads on this subject (Apo linked to one I think) and you can look there for other arguments I've made on the subject, but I wanted to mention something else... it seems to me that the statement about nature which I've always taken one way has an entirely different way one could look at it.. it's not so much saying men shouldn't have long hair (Our Lord Himself is depicted with long hair), it's saying that when men have long hair, they do not glory in it; but that when women have long hair, they glory in it. excepting metrosexuals, this is largely true: the hair is not a glory-point for a man, usually. therefore, it is not something for him to cover before God. a man should make not to "veil" his huge paycheck, his high prestige, or his fancy new sports car (as should anyone who glories in these things) because those are the things he tends to glory in. St. Paul doesn't think any man should glory in his hair, and doesn't think they generally do so either. he thinks women should glory in their hair, and that they generally do so. but in prayer you veil those things you glory in.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
off topic posts are being/will be deleted.

[Vincent Vega]

I love seeing ladies in veils. I actually saw one at Easter mass about my age who had one on, and I thought that was really beautiful.
That's one thing that I think is neat - I have a Muslim friend (who is a girl) and explained to me that they wear the hijab out of modesty, and that they do it, following the example of Mary, which I really thought was neat.
It's a shame that a non-Christian religion has more respect for Mary than most protestants...but I digress, sorry.

Edited April 14, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[Moosey]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1834362' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:20 PM']I disagree... St. Paul told the Corinthian women to cover their heads because "any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head", because "a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels", and says "Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering."[/quote]
Al reiterates my reasons for wearing my veil. I also chopped 11 inches of my hair off for the same reason. I was very vain about my hair. The veil just helps me even more.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Moosey

[CatherineM]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1834369' date='Apr 13 2009, 07:27 PM']I love seeing ladies in veils. I actually saw one at Easter mass about my age who had one on, and I thought that was really beautiful.
That's one thing that I think is neat - I have a Muslim friend (who is a girl) and explained to me that they wear the hijab out of modesty, and that they do it, following the example of Mary, which I really thought was neat.
It's a shame that a non-Christian religion has more respect for Mary than most protestants...but I digress, sorry.[/quote]

Mary is actually mentioned in the Qur'an more times than she is in the New Testament.

I actually find having long hair less vain than short hair. One requires trips to the beauty shop, and the other doesn't. I wear ball hats everywhere in summer, and a nordic balaclava with a bomber hat in winter. I obviously can't wear either in mass. I am giving some thought to wearing a scarf. I liked the Tzinius site's instructions for tying them. The only problem is that in this neighborhood, I might be taken for a Muslim. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but my husband is already paranoid that I am a target, and I don't think he'd like it. If it was easy enough, I could tie it after I got to mass. Wearing one of my mantillas wouldn't work because I find them next to impossible to keep on because of my hair texture. Something I'm going to think about.

[Aloysius]

relatively long or short, it seems to me that the point Paul is making is that hair is a source of vanity in women... or actually rather that it is "her glory", which is not necessarily something bad like vanity. when one considers a woman's hair "her glory", one is not necessarily saying she is vain about it... it is, in a certain sense, correctly "her glory". she should glory in her hair (while a man in St. Paul's estimation should not glory in his hair), but then all the more should she veil that which she glories in when she comes before God.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1834362' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:20 PM']I disagree... St. Paul told the Corinthian women to cover their heads because "any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head", because "a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels", and says "Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering."

St. Paul said nothing about modesty necessarily... he said nothing to indicate he thought that those who had their heads uncovered were in any way sexually licentious or being prostitutes. [b]he said they were disgracing their prayer life by unveiling while praying.[/b] the explanation that says this is about not looking like a prostitute has no basis in the text itself... if he wanted to say not to look like a prostitute, he wouldn't have said not to pray unveiled; he would've said not to go to the city unveiled, not to go out in public unveiled, basically not to ever try to look like a prostitute or be a prostitute. but he specifies WHILE praying, he specifies BECAUSE of the angels.

I've said a lot in threads on this subject (Apo linked to one I think) and you can look there for other arguments I've made on the subject, but I wanted to mention something else... it seems to me that the statement about nature which I've always taken one way has an entirely different way one could look at it.. it's not so much saying men shouldn't have long hair (Our Lord Himself is depicted with long hair), it's saying that when men have long hair, they do not glory in it; but that when women have long hair, they glory in it. excepting metrosexuals, this is largely true: the hair is not a glory-point for a man, usually. therefore, it is not something for him to cover before God. a man should make not to "veil" his huge paycheck, his high prestige, or his fancy new sports car (as should anyone who glories in these things) because those are the things he tends to glory in. St. Paul doesn't think any man should glory in his hair, and doesn't think they generally do so either. he thinks women should glory in their hair, and that they generally do so. but in prayer you veil those things you glory in.[/quote]

You say when praying St. Paul instructs to cover ones head. I am just wondering if you personally think that St. Paul meant when praying all the time everywhere. Do you personally think a woman should be veiled all the time when she prays... personal prayer and everything?

This is only a question for you personally, and I hope it doesn't spark anything or take us off topic. Just an curious question I have about your post and your ideas on this.

[Aloysius]

I think it would be a good thing, yes; but the specific thing Paul was addressing was praying in a Church, so I think the proper thing would be to require women to always veil themselves in the presence of the blessed sacrament in the tabernacle and leave it up to personal devotion whether they wish to use their veils in private prayer. Apo said veils in the East have a quasi-sacramental status... it is my opinion that they have that same status in the west. in private prayer, a veil would be like holding rosary beads, but in public liturgy a veil would be like the priest's vestments (in their status of how required they should be to be used)

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1834787' date='Apr 14 2009, 12:26 AM']I think it would be a good thing, yes; but the specific thing Paul was addressing was praying in a Church, so I think the proper thing would be to require women to always veil themselves in the presence of the blessed sacrament in the tabernacle and leave it up to personal devotion whether they wish to use their veils in private prayer. Apo said veils in the East have a quasi-sacramental status... it is my opinion that they have that same status in the west. in private prayer, a veil would be like holding rosary beads, but in public liturgy a veil would be like the priest's vestments (in their status of how required they should be to be used)[/quote]

Interesting. Thank you.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='pio' post='1833923' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:56 PM']I think it's good for women to have a choice as to whether they should cover their heads or not. I think we're still supposed to, really, but certainly in the UK it's pretty rare to see anyone covering their head at a Novus Ordo Mass. Which is really rather sad, because I think a lot of women are ignorant of their history and feel as though they *need* to resemble men.[/quote]
No, it isn't all that common here, from what I've seen. At least not in my neck of the woods.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1833924' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:56 PM']Yesterday, as I was about to respond to this, my WiFi went down...but what I wanted to say was, I placed an order with Tzinous! I got a couple scarves plus a tunic and their parachute skirt. [/quote]
Nice!

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1834048' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:12 PM']St. Paul told the Corinthinan women to cover their heads because women in the city left their heads uncovered to let men know they were for sale.[/quote]
And yet the elite Roman women wore their hair up, but not covered (unless participating in religious ritual, in which case both men and women covered their heads). Hairstyles were rather elaborate among the elite. Though I have found [url="http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Pompei_-_Sappho_-_MAN.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3a%50ompei_-_Sappho_-_MAN.jpg&usg=__KiR3SB-2ZdirDfql1eXIjoV4Xms=&h=3510&w=2550&sz=3648&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=qWXfJBaO4l-DgM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpompeii%2Bwoman%2Bscribe%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US%3a%6ffficial%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1"]an example[/url] of covering the head with a gold hairnet, which was the fashion under Nero. Greek examples I've seen, though, usually show the woman with her head uncovered. Granted that it's been awhile since I've looked at Greek sculpture and art, though. Anyway, I have to say that I'm with Al on this one (surprising, I know, given my previous stance on women's headcoverings ).

[Sarah_JC]

Sari's are modest - why don't Western women wear them? I don't because I feel it would look weird. I'm not Indian. I'm also not Spanish, nor identify with the culture. Why would I wear a mantilla?

I wear a HAT. I look weird in a veil. And like a cancer patient in a headscarf. The purpose of head-covering is to cover one's head. It is probably preferable to not block the view of the person behind you, but some women can't help that with their head uncovered. So while I agree that the ridiculous hats of Victorian times are probably a bad choice, I fail to see the difference between a cloche or beret and a veil.

Much encouragement to the OP to continue her devotion. God bless!