Somali Pirates

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834402' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:54 PM']Again, out of hundreds of "pirate attacks" there has been nearly 0 deaths -- unless you count the pirates being killed by other State's militaries.[/quote]

And again this does not justify kidnapping, and threatening to murder their captive. There are nearly 0 deaths because the ransom is paid, the majority of the time if not all of the time when
it does not end in the death of the captive.

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834402' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:54 PM']And you are right, most other nations, nations that are not corrupt, do not threaten to murder the 'arrested' person. But they do demand payment. And because Somalia cannot plea as a State, they do what they can.[/quote]

But millions of dollars in payment, with the added bonus that if you don't pay the hostage may very well be murdered? The fact that Somalia is a fail state does have great importance, individuals do not have the right to enact capital punishment, only a state would. Yet these individuals threaten to kill their captives unless the ransom is paid.

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834402' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:54 PM']What most other States are in fact, doing is poisoning the citizens of Somalia. Dumping waste inside Somalia and in Somali waters (which would explain some Somali fishermen going further out into the waters, and believing that they are justified in doing so). This has been happening for years. That's a bit worse than holding people for ransom, isn't it?[/quote]

Is there proof that the majority of the ships that have been hijacked are these dumping ships? If majority or not, how does this justify 'arresting' asking for ransom and threatening to end the life of other men?

My heart and prayers go out to the people of Somali, but these reasons do not give them or anyone else the right to rob men of their liberty, and threaten to murder those persons unless the ransom is paid. It is simply unjust, and wicked. For all this time and energy spent on stealing and kidnapping they could have fought to form a better government.

[rkwright]

Here is a list of ships attacked or hijacked by the pirates. This is out of control...

If everything you are saying is true and is the true motivation of these men, why are they attacking yachts, fishing vessels, and cruise ships? Its pure money plain and simple.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_attacked_by_Somali_pirates"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships..._Somali_pirates[/url]

[CatherineM]

I was watching a digital recreation of the sniper attack. These Seals had to deal with rolling surf on both ships, and just wait for the right moment for them all to stick their heads up. I am a good shot, but those guys could thread a needle. I wouldn't want one of them after me.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1834429' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:27 PM']Is there proof that the majority of the ships that have been hijacked are these dumping ships? If majority or not, how does this justify 'arresting' asking for ransom and threatening to end the life of other men?
...
For all this time and energy spent on stealing and kidnapping they could have fought to form a better government.[/quote]

Seeing as we, and many other countries, are murdering and sickening their people? I think demanding some money for clean-up and restitution is called for don't you? What do you suggest? Do they do as Ghandi suggested of the Jews; just march off the face of the earth?

We should be thankful that these people are not the Militant Islamist groups that behead civilians and fly planes into buildings. The sad thing is, our actions are creating an environment that allows such hate and violence to breed.

And speaking of liberties,liberty doesn't mean fishing in other people's waters (stealing food from another's food supply). Nor poisoning their people for money, or dumping toxic chemicals with the blessings of a foreign Government.

You may recall that late last year some Somalis stopped a ship full of weapons? This was not for the weapons; they didn't know what was on it. But they don't trust any ship that might be heading their way. They are trying to keep their people from being sick and dying.

Consider it a preemptive strike.
From one of the very few pieces of real journalism where real questions were asked. Including the "why?" question. [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/01/world/africa/01pirates.html?_r=2&ref=world"]From a NY Times article last Oct:[/url]
[indent] “We just saw a big ship,” the pirates’ spokesman, Sugule Ali, said in a telephone interview. “So we stopped it.”

The pirates quickly learned, though, that their booty was an estimated $30 million worth of heavy weaponry, heading for Kenya or Sudan, depending on whom you ask.

In a 45-minute interview, Mr. Sugule spoke on everything from what the pirates wanted (“just money”) to why they were doing this (“to stop illegal fishing and dumping in our waters”) to what they had to eat on board (rice, meat, bread, spaghetti, “you know, normal human-being food”).

He said that so far, in the eyes of the world, the pirates had been misunderstood. “We don’t consider ourselves sea bandits,” he said. “We consider sea bandits those who illegally fish in our seas and dump waste in our seas and carry weapons in our seas. We are simply patrolling our seas. Think of us like a coast guard.”[/indent]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBI4OX92RFs&feature=player_embedded"]And I posted this earlier, but I will post it again since it's a statement from someone who grew up in Somalia. [/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcpwS0izoJg&feature=player_embedded"]And here is a recent news piece that also actually asked "why?"[/url]

[CatherineM]

Are they using any of the ransom money for toxic clean up? I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just wondering because Supersite cleanup is really expensive.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1834434' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:36 PM']Here is a list of ships attacked or hijacked by the pirates. This is out of control...

If everything you are saying is true and is the true motivation of these men, why are they attacking yachts, fishing vessels, and cruise ships? Its pure money plain and simple.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_attacked_by_Somali_pirates"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships..._Somali_pirates[/url][/quote]

Yes they are after money -- and to protect their home. And the vast majority of ships are chemical carriers and material haulers.

Btw, why would a cruise ship head deliberately out there? I don't blame them for assuming deception.

No one here thinks that if people from others countries came here to kill and poison Americans, we would do far worse than arrest people and demand payment?

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1834475' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:02 PM']Are they using any of the ransom money for toxic clean up? I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just wondering because Supersite cleanup is really expensive.[/quote]

Probably not. They need food and medical supplies -- I am sure that's more of a pressing need.

[txdinghysailor]

Who cares why they're doing it? All we have to do is prevent them from doing it to American ships.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='txdinghysailor' post='1834496' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:15 PM']Who cares why they're doing it? All we have to do is prevent them from doing it to American ships.[/quote]

Yup. Legal = moral. And as long as our Government says something is legal (and silence does condone an action) it is moral.

[txdinghysailor]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834504' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:20 PM']Yup. Legal = moral. And as long as our Government says something is legal (and silence does condone an action) it is moral.[/quote]

I'm not saying that. However, don't you consider it morally acceptable to use force to defend private property from theivery and terrorism?

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='txdinghysailor' post='1834514' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:23 PM']I'm not saying that. However, don't you consider it morally acceptable to use force to defend private property from theivery and terrorism?[/quote]

Like the Somalis are doing?
1 - I believe that a case can be made for that.
2 - I believe the West is the real aggressor in this case. For example, we invaded the Middle East making the case of pre-emptive strike to defend out families, because terrorists came over here.
They are doing the same.

We are the ones in the wrong here, pure and simple.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='txdinghysailor' post='1834514' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:23 PM']I'm not saying that. However, don't you consider it morally acceptable to use force to defend private property from theivery and terrorism?[/quote]

And btw, the Western countries could -- instead of military action -- respect the wishes of the Somalis, apologize, direct ships to not enter the Somali waters, and fund clean-up and food and medical efforts.

But of course that would mean the Governments of the West would have to admit they did something monstrous. And I think they want to have an excuse to go in by force and set up a Somali State that will allow us to continue dumping.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834488' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:10 PM']Probably not. They need food and medical supplies -- I am sure that's more of a pressing need.[/quote]

Except the people running these boats are the warlords. They're not doing this out the interest of their country - they're doing it to make money.

If this is purely to protect the waters, why don't they actually protect them? They take over a ship, ransom the crew, then when the ransom is paid, they let the ship go. Why aren't they sinking the ships, taking the "waste" cargo else where, scaring off the fishing ships?

You think they're taking cruise ships because they feel they may be dumping chemicals??? Yeah right! They know western tourists bring lots of money! Why do they attack yachts? Are private yachts really dumping waste, can anyone actually believe that?

BTW the UN has already passed laws against dumping waste near Somalia. I haven't found a source since 2005 saying this is going on anymore.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834540' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:34 PM']And btw, the Western countries could -- instead of military action -- respect the wishes of the Somalis, apologize, direct ships to not enter the Somali waters, and fund clean-up and food and medical efforts.

But of course that would mean the Governments of the West would have to admit they did something monstrous. And I think they want to have an excuse to go in by force and set up a Somali State that will allow us to continue dumping.[/quote]

They're not in Somali waters! Thats the big point here - they're in international waters. On the "High seas".

When our ships pursue the pirates they flee to Somali waters and our ships have to back off.

[txdinghysailor]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1834544' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:35 PM']They're not in Somali waters! Thats the big point here - they're in international waters. On the "High seas".

When our ships pursue the pirates they flee to Somali waters and our ships have to back off.[/quote]

Thank you. Just what I was going to say. Somali territorial waters do NOT extend 400 nautical miles off the coast.