Somali Pirates

[rkwright]

I'm struggling to find any recent stories of dumping in the area...

I have found one, from Al Jazeera (I can't believe I'm even using some of it...) its from 2008 and talks about the European nations that are dumping stuff illegally there.

[url="http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html"]http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2...4223218644.html[/url]

The last paragraph is interesting...
[quote]Abdi Ismail Samatar, professor of Geography at the University of Minnesota, told Al Jazeera that because an international coalition of warships has been deployed to the Gulf of Aden, the alleged dumping of waste must have been observed.

Environmental damage

"If these acts are continuing, then surely they must have been seen by someone involved in maritime operations," he said.

"Is the cargo aimed at a certain destination more important than monitoring illegal activities in the region? Piracy is not the only problem for Somalia, and I think it's irresponsible on the part of the authorities to overlook this issue."

Mohammed Gure, chairman of the Somalia Concern Group, said that the social and environmental consequences will be felt for decades.

"The Somali coastline used to sustain hundreds of thousands of people, as a source of food and livelihoods. Now much of it is almost destroyed, primarily at the hands of these so-called ministers that have sold their nation to fill their own pockets."

Ould-Abdallah said piracy will not prevent waste dumping.

"The intentions of these pirates are not concerned with protecting their environment," he said.

"What is ultimately needed is a functioning, effective government that will get its act together and take control of its affairs."[/quote]

2 things... if dumping is going on, surely someone from the international coalition would have seen it - but there are no reports of it. Secondly, the people working over there (this Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to the area) says that the pirates are not concerned with protecting the environment.

The dumping is bad stuff, but the Somali's contracted for it so they could make $. Now they're hijacking ships to make $.

[Lounge Daddy]

The Somalis may think so, if we poisoned their immediate water with radioactive garbage along their coast. As the Somalis stated in the NY Times article last October, they are after some food that looks normal.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1834574' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:46 PM']2 things... if dumping is going on, surely someone from the international coalition would have seen it - but there are no reports of it. Secondly, the people working over there (this Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to the area) says that the pirates are not concerned with protecting the environment.

The dumping is bad stuff, but the Somali's contracted for it so they could make $. Now they're hijacking ships to make $.[/quote]

For the first point, the international community (Governments) have been doing the dumping. Note that list of ships. A lot of tankers and chemical carriers from a lot of different Nations.

And for the second point, the old Somali State contracted for it -- he was propped up and paid by the West to allow this. This is a primary reason the Somalis got rid of them, and a primary reason the US and other countries fought to prevent that.

And this is why the US and other countries will send in the military "to restore order" -- meaning to restore a State that allows the West access to its old dumping ground. (It isn't politically popular to keep dumping toxic waste into mountains.)

Our Government isn't interested in defending liberty; only licence.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834580' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:47 PM']The Somalis may think so, if we poisoned their immediate water with radioactive garbage along their coast. As the Somalis stated in the NY Times article last October, they are after some food that looks normal.[/quote]

Did you read the rest of the article you posted?

The headline is "Somali Pirates Tell Their Side: They Want Only Money"
[quote]He insisted that the pirates were not interested in the weapons and had no plans to sell them to Islamist insurgents battling Somalia’s weak transitional government. “Somalia has suffered from many years of destruction because of all these weapons,” he said. “We don’t want that suffering and chaos to continue. We are not going to offload the weapons. We just want the money.”

He said the pirates were asking for $20 million in cash; “we don’t use any other system than cash.” But he added that they were willing to bargain. “That’s deal-making,” he explained.

Piracy in Somalia is a highly organized, lucrative, ransom-driven business. Just this year, pirates hijacked more than 25 ships, and in many cases, they were paid million-dollar ransoms to release them. The juicy payoffs have attracted gunmen from across Somalia, and the pirates are thought to number in the thousands.

The piracy industry started about 10 to 15 years ago, Somali officials said, as a response to illegal fishing. Somalia’s central government imploded in 1991, casting the country into chaos. With no patrols along the shoreline, Somalia’s tuna-rich waters were soon plundered by commercial fishing fleets from around the world. Somali fishermen armed themselves and turned into vigilantes by confronting illegal fishing boats and demanding that they pay a tax.

“From there, they got greedy,” said Mohamed Osman Aden, a Somali diplomat in Kenya. “They starting attacking everyone.”

By the early 2000s, many of the fishermen had traded in their nets for machine guns and were hijacking any vessel they could catch: sailboat, oil tanker, United Nations-chartered food ship.

“It’s true that the pirates started to defend the fishing business,” Mr. Mohamed said. “And illegal fishing is a real problem for us. But this does not justify these boys to now act like guardians. They are criminals. The world must help us crack down on them.”

The United States and several European countries, in particular France, have been talking about ways to patrol the waters together. The United Nations is even considering something like a maritime peacekeeping force. Because of all the hijackings, the waters off Somalia’s coast are considered the most dangerous shipping lanes in the world.[/quote]
[quote]Mr. Sugule said his men were treating the crew members well. (The pirates would not let the crew members speak on the phone, saying it was against their rules.) “Killing is not in our plans,” he said. “We only want money so we can protect ourselves from hunger.”

When asked why the pirates needed $20 million to protect themselves from hunger, Mr. Sugule laughed and said, “Because we have a lot of men.”[/quote]

Edited April 14, 2009 by rkwright

[rkwright]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834601' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:54 PM']For the first point, the international community (Governments) have been doing the dumping. Note that list of ships. A lot of tankers and chemical carriers from a lot of different Nations.

And for the second point, the old Somali State contracted for it -- he was propped up and paid by the West to allow this. This is a primary reason the Somalis got rid of them, and a primary reason the US and other countries fought to prevent that.

And this is why the US and other countries will send in the military "to restore order" -- meaning to restore a State that allows the West access to its old dumping ground. (It isn't politically popular to keep dumping toxic waste into mountains.)

Our Government isn't interested in defending liberty; only licence.[/quote]

If you read the article I posted, you'd note that both of those are actually factually wrong.

No government is taking part in the dumping. Corporations (mostly European) are. And when they have investigated the claims, they have called the corporations behaving like "the mafia" trying to hide assets under fictious names, ect.

Second, there is very very little evidence the old state contracted for it. Most of the evidence shows it began during the middle of the civil war. The contracts were paid to local warlords.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1834488' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:10 PM']Probably not. They need food and medical supplies -- I am sure that's more of a pressing need.[/quote]
And you have evidence that shows that that is where the money is going?

[Madame Vengier]

It's convenient how you guys are ignoring the articles linking the piracy to jihad that I posted last night, after having told me in the previous thread that I was wrong.

[cmotherofpirl]

If you look at this 2008 PDF map you will see just some of the extent of this piracy. It is well organized:
[url="http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/freeproducts/somalia/Piracy/UNOSAT_Piracy_Gulf_Aden_2008_Lowres_v7.pdf"]http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/freeprodu...8_Lowres_v7.pdf[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090414/D97I6RSG1.html"]http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090414/D97I6RSG1.html[/url]

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1834624' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:59 PM']And you have evidence that shows that that is where the money is going?[/quote]

Your right. Samalis don't eat. And the "pirates" have different needs than anyone else. Maybe they feed on money?

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1834616' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:57 PM']No government is taking part in the dumping. Corporations (mostly European) are.[/quote]

And Governments aren't doing anything about it. Even allowing it? And also repeatedly allowing cruise ships and the like to go there?

I am not denying that they are after money. Of course they are. If someone polluted my land, my food supply, killed my children and made others sick, and then dumped in the waters used for fishing -- I'd demand money too. At the very least.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1835080' date='Apr 14 2009, 06:29 AM']It's convenient how you guys are ignoring the articles linking the piracy to jihad that I posted last night, after having told me in the previous thread that I was wrong.[/quote]
I've accepted that it's possible. I have nothing to add to the discussion.

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1833996' date='Apr 13 2009, 04:42 PM']To be fair, Somalia is a very divided country. As I understand it, different regions are dominated by different factions, clans, governments... Certainly some areas [b]could be[/b] different than others, right?[/quote]

For quite a while, Puntland was de facto independent. If I remember correctly, Somaliland also had a large degree of autonomy. Different groups dominated each region.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1835219' date='Apr 14 2009, 11:49 AM']And Governments aren't doing anything about it. Even allowing it? And also repeatedly allowing cruise ships and the like to go there?

I am not denying that they are after money. Of course they are. If someone polluted my land, my food supply, killed my children and made others sick, and then dumped in the waters used for fishing -- I'd demand money too. At the very least.[/quote]

Whats wrong with cruise ships going through there? Its one of the most heavily trafficked waters in the world. Something like 20,000 ships a year. I guess the entire world should suffer because a few criminals are dumping waste there. Shouldn't innocent people be able to travel in peace?

These pirates don't care about pollution, illegal fishing, or a food supply. They want money for themselves and only them. These guys don't have any good intentions. They aren't interested in rebuilding Somalia or the sick kids there. They're only looking out for themselves.

There are some basic questions here that cannot be answered...

If these "noble somalis" are so interested in protecting their fish\land\kids, why do they let the ships continue after the ransom is paid?

If they're so interested in protecting the area, why don't they try to steer other ships clear instead of hijacking them?

Why hasn't the international coalition of warships in the area reported one instance of illegal dumping?

Why in the ransom demands have the pirates never stated that their purpose is to stop illegal dumping ect?

Why are the pirates attacking yachts and cruise ships - which obviously are not dumping and obviously cannot be mistaken for cargo ships?

Even if there are few out there that are doing this to protect their homeland, taking people hostage is not right.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1835215' date='Apr 14 2009, 01:45 PM']Your right. Samalis don't eat. And the "pirates" have different needs than anyone else. Maybe they feed on money?[/quote]


Holy Moly. If these pirates are spending this money on food I think the larger issue is the outrageous price of food in Somalia. Millions of dollars to feed a family! What and outrage! We should do something about this!