Bad Things Happening To Good People

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
Matthew 5:44-45
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45
that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

[CatherineM]

Dr. A-If you want me to say that God is maliciously killing people with natural occurrences, I wouldn't hold my breath. If you want me to say that people are sometimes responsible for the bad that happens, I'd recommend you discuss that topic with parents who lost children in the school that collapsed in the China earthquake. People can just as easily be killed or harmed by complete accidents, although there are accidents, and there are accidents. We say that people are killed by drunk driving accidents, but that is a very different kind of accident than dying in an accident caused by a flat tire or a patch of unseen ice. We could sit in a concrete bunker wrapped in bubble wrap, and still die unexpectedly, or some daring people can tempt fate by running with the bulls in Spain, and come away without a scratch. Things can simply happen.

I believe that we are called to be prudent with the life we have, but we are also called to live it. I had a nephew die in the early 1970's because of a birth defect to his heart. He was 10 months old. There was nothing that our medical science could do at the time for a defect that is easily fixed today. I could have been destroyed by believing that God gave us a beautiful child, only to fall in love with him, and then have him die. I could be bitter that children today can live while my nephew died. I'm not. I recognized that all life, no matter how short, is a glorious gift from God. We can't really know why things happen. We can only have faith that someday we will understand in the fullness of time.

I love a good debate, but that is not what you are doing. If I want to be talked to in such a manner, I will give my mother in law a call. I sincerely hope you can find someone to answer your questions if you are truly seeking enlightenment. I have no desire to play dodgeball today, so I will turn this discussion over to someone with more time and patience.

[Dr_Asik]

I didn't say God maliciously kills people, just that he kills people. And I don't mean to say we should stop believing in his Providence, just that his Providence encompasses not only the good but also the evil. But obviously, we're talking right past each other, so there's no point discussing this further. Edited April 19, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[philothea]

[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1838726' date='Apr 17 2009, 03:59 PM']I don't understand.
Children get raped.
Innocent people get murdered.
People get cancer.
All these evil things happen.
I've just watche don TV about people trying to excape Nort Korea, because they are oppressed and starving. Most of them die on the journe. Or get deported back and put in labour camps until they die. Or are forced to be sex slaves, because if they don' they'll be turned in to the chinese authorities and sent back and executed.
These people are good and brave.
And there are people in CHina, good Christian people who help them. ANd if they get caught they could die.
And Jim Kong Il is living in a palace.
This lovely woman from my church died recently. She was in agony. She was only 31. She was born with a heart problem.
Herparents are lovely too. They suffer so much. I don't understnad.[/quote]
I think sometimes we get a strange idea of Christianity. I'm not sure where it originates -- wishful thinking? TV? Childish ideas?

Remember, we didn't think up these ideas of one God, the Incarnation and a suffering messiah, and that God is love. This was all [i]revealed[/i] to us, and revealed in a much harsher era.

In Old Testament times there was no modern medicine. Famine, disease, rape, and brutal warfare were common. God revealed himself to the Israelites. They believed.

Many years later, under the brutal oppressive regime of the Roman Empire, where torturing people to death was an every day practice (and Romans were the [i]civilized[/i] ones!) the Son of God was born and lived and suffered. People saw signs and believed. Christianity and Jesus' message spread across the world.

Neither in Old Testament or New Testament times is there any hint that only good things happen, therefore we conclude that God must be real. We believe our God exists because he revealed himself. Yes, God says he loves us and is omnipotent, and yet there is all this suffering. But that was never considered a contradiction in the past.

Nowadays we have become pretty successful at isolating ourselves from the misery of life for long spans of time. Then when the reality of suffering intrudes, it can shake our faith... but there's no real correlation there.

If you're asking why does God allow these things, and how can we wrap our minds around it? Well, that's an old question, and the answer (according to the Book of Job) is basically, "You wouldn't be able to understand."

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1840110' date='Apr 18 2009, 11:29 PM']

I didn't say God maliciously kills people, just that he kills people.[/quote]

Um......are you seriously claiming that?

So even though he wants us to love him and serve him......he also chucks lightning bolts at us and punches the water to splash on shore killing thousands?

So what does your idea accomplish and how can it coexist with the idea God wants us to love him and serve him? If God kills us........could you explain the implication of this?

[quote]And I don't mean to say we should stop believing in his Providence, just that his Providence encompasses not only the good but also the evil. But obviously, we're talking right past each other, so there's no point discussing this further.[/quote]

So God controls the evil...and kills us when he feels like it....is that what you are saying?


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[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1840154' date='Apr 19 2009, 01:43 AM']Um......are you seriously claiming that?

So even though he wants us to love him and serve him......he also chucks lightning bolts at us and punches the water to splash on shore killing thousands?

So what does your idea accomplish and how can it coexist with the idea God wants us to love him and serve him? If God kills us........could you explain the implication of this?[/quote]God is the author of nature. All things are created by him, and his will is the cause of everything. I have provided ample references already, these are fundamentals of Christian belief, and of any coherent theism. Nothing happens in this world except if God wants it to happen, because nothing can exist of itself except for God.

And this applies to everything. Not just nice things, but everything. So when the sun rises, this happens because God willed it; and when an earthquake destroys a whole city and its inhabitants, this happens because God willed it.

I think the burden of the proof is upon you if you don't want to accept this idea. No, physical evil is not caused by the Original Sin*, and it's not caused by Satan either. There's only one God, only one master of the universe.

As for the implications... I don't have anything more to say than St Paul and St Augustine :

[indent]How God's permission of the evil which He foreknew and could have prevented is to be reconciled with His goodness, is not fully considered; St. Augustine states the question in forcible terms, but is content by way of answer to follow St. Paul, in his reference to the unsearchableness of the Divine judgments (Contra Julianum, I, 48).[/indent] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm[/url]

[quote]So God controls the evil...and kills us when he feels like it....is that what you are saying?[/quote]God doesn't delight in killing us: when he does, he does it not for the evil of killing in itself, but for some greater good, for His plan. And, we have his word for it, he loves us deeply and his plan is to have us all in Heaven. Somehow, physical evil fits in that plan. Nobody knows how or why.

*EDIT: As for the Original Sin, I should add that although it is not the cause of physical evil, it is the cause of our vulnerability to it. God created man in a state of holiness where he did not endure corruption; but man willingly lost this gift in his disobedience.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[StColette]

This article from New Advent might be beneficial for all to read, especially the section on Metaphysical evil, which pertains to nature

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm[/url]

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='philothea' post='1840123' date='Apr 18 2009, 11:52 PM']I think sometimes we get a strange idea of Christianity. I'm not sure where it originates -- wishful thinking? TV? Childish ideas?

Remember, we didn't think up these ideas of one God, the Incarnation and a suffering messiah, and that God is love. This was all [i]revealed[/i] to us, and revealed in a much harsher era.

In Old Testament times there was no modern medicine. Famine, disease, rape, and brutal warfare were common. God revealed himself to the Israelites. They believed.

Many years later, under the brutal oppressive regime of the Roman Empire, where torturing people to death was an every day practice (and Romans were the [i]civilized[/i] ones!) the Son of God was born and lived and suffered. People saw signs and believed. Christianity and Jesus' message spread across the world.

Neither in Old Testament or New Testament times is there any hint that only good things happen, therefore we conclude that God must be real. We believe our God exists because he revealed himself. Yes, God says he loves us and is omnipotent, and yet there is all this suffering. But that was never considered a contradiction in the past.

Nowadays we have become pretty successful at isolating ourselves from the misery of life for long spans of time. Then when the reality of suffering intrudes, it can shake our faith... but there's no real correlation there.

If you're asking why does God allow these things, and how can we wrap our minds around it? Well, that's an old question, and the answer (according to the Book of Job) is basically, "You wouldn't be able to understand."[/quote]

[trustandgratitude]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1838900' date='Apr 17 2009, 05:51 PM']Even bad things happened to Jesus and He was perfect. But God allowed those things to happen because He knew good would come from it in some way. Without Christ's suffering and death, we would not have His resurrection.
We see only a tiny speck of what is happening in the world. God sees everything and he sees the effect each action and experience has on others. Trust that He is loving-He will never stop loving us, and that love is not just a kind of 'oh He loves everyone so His love for me isn't all that special'. God loves you and He knows us each better than we know ourselves. If He allows us to suffer, there must be a reason for it because I am sure nothing would hurt Him more than to see one of His beautiful children suffer for nothing.[/quote]




St John of the Cross speaks of redemptive suffering, that our sufferings can and do effect other in thier journey. It is a great mystery!