HisChildForever Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) Here is the problem, Knight. Many individuals who DO support abortion do NOT believe that a child is being murdered. Not every single person who is pro-choice is a devil in disguise, ruthlessly snickering as a child is aborted. They need to be taught that YES, this IS a child from a scientific and not religious standpoint. Saying that they are wicked, or devils, or possessed is NOT going to educate them but convince them that we are fo[i][/i]ols not to be taken seriously. Edited May 20, 2009 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 The Nazi' didn't believe the Jews where human either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 No one is questioning that? I was hoping you would actually respond to what I just said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1871508' date='May 20 2009, 12:23 AM']Here is the problem, Knight. Many individuals who DO support abortion do NOT believe that a child is being murdered. Not every single person who is pro-choice is a devil in disguise, ruthlessly snickering as a child is aborted. They need to be taught that YES, this IS a child from a scientific and not religious standpoint. Saying that they are wicked, or devils, or possessed is NOT going to educate them but convince them that we are fo[i][/i]ols not to be taken seriously.[/quote] What can I say, it is wicked to deny the personhood of a child. I can't help they don't want to hear that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1871517' date='May 20 2009, 12:31 AM']What can I say, it is wicked to deny the personhood of a child. I can't help they don't want to hear that.[/quote] And yet calling them wicked and possessed is the right way to go? You will not be changing ANY minds if you go up a group of pro-choice individuals and tell them that they are possessed by Satan and in grave need of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1871518' date='May 20 2009, 12:33 AM']And yet calling them wicked and possessed is the right way to go? You will not be changing ANY minds if you go up a group of pro-choice individuals and tell them that they are possessed by Satan and in grave need of help.[/quote] Leaders that support such genocide are possibly possessed. Sorry this offenses you. This genocide is real very real. Satan himself is no doubt behind it. Those leaders that support this genocide of babies have various levels of influence from Satan, from mere suggestion to full possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 What is going to win people over to the pro-life side? Education, prayer, sincerity, and most of all love. I remember hearing a beautiful story about Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta. She was in a public debate with pro-choicer. He made his claims saying that it was nothing but tissue and all the while she had her head down and was in prayer. It was turned over to her but she refused, telling her opponent to continue. It kept going on and on like this and after a while she was asked if she had ANYTHING to say for the pro-life movement. They couldn't figure out why she was being silent. Certainly, she had much to say. Mother Teresa finally spoke up. She lifted her head and said in all sweetness and sincerity, "I believe in love and charity." Then she lowered her head again and continued to pray. Well, her opponent was blown out of the water. He realized that he had failed to consider love and what that involved. Not that long ago, the film [i]bella [/i]came out. It has been hailed as a very pro-life movie. Yet if you watch you'll notice that the main character Jose does not outright condemn abortion or call Nina satan for desiring to abort her baby. Instead, he takes an interest in her, listens to what she has to say regardless if he agrees with her or not, empathizes with her, shows compassion for her which no one else is doing, spends time with her, and sacrifices for her so that he can help her. He is there for her and supports her. He loves her unconditionally, not in a romantic way but as a true blue friend. Through his love for her, Nina could see that he truly cared about her and she could see that he wanted what was best for her. She trusted him, which made her feel more comfortable opening up to him. In this way, the walls around her heart fell crashing down so that she could listen to him. She listened to him and though she disagreed at first, through his love, something that she hadn't gotten from anyone in a long time this lead her to choose life. That's how you really bring in converts. Just look at the Sisters of Life. Do they go around barking at people that are pro-choice saying that they are possessed by satan. No, they know that to be pro-life is to be pro-love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1871524' date='May 20 2009, 12:40 AM']Leaders that support such genocide are possibly possessed. Sorry this offenses you. This genocide is real very real. Satan himself is no doubt behind it. Those leaders that support this genocide of babies have various levels of influence from Satan, from mere suggestion to full possession.[/quote] I am NOT offended by what you are saying. Clearly you are not reading my posts or not really paying attention to them, because I told you that approaching someone who is PRO-CHOICE from a religious standpoint will not change their mind or their heart. And telling them that they are possessed by Satan will offend THEM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) HisChildForever, I'm not talking to pro-choicers. I'm talking to Catholics. There can be way to speak to the converted and a somewhat different way to speak to the fallen. Yet we, you and I seem to have a fundamental disagreement if you truly believe that "approaching someone who is PRO-CHOICE from a religious standpoint will not change their mind or their heart." That my friend is complete non-sense. Again while there is sometimes a different way to approach the unbelievers we can not sugar coat the truth, or strip a part of it out of our approach to them, such as the religious part. Nor can we deny the truth if it is asked of us. Lastly I will restate that I am not speaking to pro-choicers. I made no claims to be speaking to pro-choicers. I am speaking to Catholics and being rather blunt and to the point. That is no sin, and there is nothing wrong at all with such directness. I have no time for relative nicey nice talk. Edited May 20, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1871561' date='May 20 2009, 01:13 AM']Yet we, you and I seem to have a fundamental disagreement if you truly believe that "approaching someone who is PRO-CHOICE from a religious standpoint will not change their mind or their heart." That my friend is complete non-sense.[/quote] Unless they themselves are religious, it probably won't work. Talking to the luke-warm believers or non-believers in a religious sense often is a real turn off. Some of them are angry at God and turned away from Him or don't believe in Him at all. I have a friend who is an ex-Christian that left because she saw the parishioners around her as hypocritical, so bringing up religion with her would not be a good idea since she would be defensive about Christians. I lived with her for an entire school year and I was not all preachy, talking fire and brimstone, being judgmental, or calling anyone possessed by satan. She once said that there are plenty of negative stereotypes of Catholics and she said that by getting to know me that that not all Catholics are like that. I see this as planting seeds. Conversion may come about in her through my example and witness over time. In the words of St. Francis of Assissi, "Preach the Gospel at all times. Only use words when necessary." Besides, there are plenty of reasons apart from religious ones why to be pro-life that we can share with others despite what they believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1871561' date='May 20 2009, 01:13 AM']HisChildForever, I'm not talking to pro-choicers. I'm talking to Catholics. There can be way to speak to the converted and a somewhat different way to speak to the fallen. Yet we, you and I seem to have a fundamental disagreement if you truly believe that "approaching someone who is PRO-CHOICE from a religious standpoint will not change their mind or their heart." That my friend is complete non-sense. Again while there is sometimes a different way to approach the unbelievers we can not sugar coat the truth, or strip a part of it out of our approach to them, such as the religious part. Nor can we deny the truth if it is asked of us. Lastly I will restate that I am not speaking to pro-choicers. I made no claims to be speaking to pro-choicers. I am speaking to Catholics and being rather blunt and to the point. That is no sin, and there is nothing wrong at all with such directness. I have no time for relative nicey nice talk.[/quote] I brought up the pro-choice discussion because your attitude about pro-choice individuals has to change. Carrying on about them being wicked people possessed by the Devil does not benefit either “side” of the abortion argument. I would really like to know what your interactions are like with people who ARE pro-choice. I wonder if you have ever gotten into debates with pro-choice family or friends and told them that they are possessed by Satan. The fact is that you have to learn to approach pro-choice individuals as PEOPLE. I feel that your posts regarding this subject are emotionless and rigid. You should not be viewing these people as your enemies. As I said before, many do not believe that the child in the womb is a child. In fact many do not even view it as an issue having to do with children but as an issue having to do with women. You can argue with a pro-choice individual all you want about the soul and Christ, but if the individual does not believe in God this approach will get you nowhere. You have a much better shot of conversion if you pursue the scientific argument. Once the individual fully accepts that this is a CHILD being MURDERED, and not just a clump of cells, you can THEN discuss Catholicism – by this point they will be less hostile and more receptive. As a side note, I find it amusing that I am being told - by someone who claims pro-choice individuals are possessed by Satan - that my rational views about approaching said individuals with science rather than religion are nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 KOC, please understand, not all Catholics are properly formed--and we can easily understand this given the state of catechesis in America today. I voted for Obama in the primary because I didn't [i]get it[/i]. I didn't understand what I was doing. Yet I was called evil by my brothers and sisters here because of what I believed was the right decision, in ignorance. I can assure you, brother, this only drove me further away from my full reversion to the Faith. There's a lot of truth to the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar." That doesn't mean compromise, and that doesn't mean we can't correct others. What *is* wrong is doing so without eloquence, grace, and charity. Have a little mercy on other people. You have no idea where they may have come from, how they were educated, or where their hearts are. Condescension does NOT bring people to Christ, ever. Mercy and compassion do. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I will not apologize and did nothing wrong. Truth is truth, and many times the truth hurts, and is very hard to hear. Christ Himself used such bluntness many times. When speaking to both those that followed Him and those that did not. ------------------------ John 8:36-59 36 If therefore the son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. 37 I know that you are the children of Abraham: but you seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do the things that you have seen with your father. 39 They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not. 41 You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: 43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 45 But if I say the truth, you believe me not. 46 Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me? 47 He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God. 48 The Jews therefore answered, and said to him: Do not we say well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered: I have not a devil: but I honour my Father, and you have dishonoured me. 50 But I seek not my own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51 Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever. 52 The Jews therefore said: Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? and the prophets are dead. Whom dost thou make thyself? 54 Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariaane Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1871437' date='May 20 2009, 05:31 AM']Go back and read Ariaaane's silly post saying she was CINO (Catholic in name only) Then Soc passive aggressively suggesting that some were on the side of prochoice who were claiming to be Catholic. Apo also chiming in there. So... yeah[/quote] I did not say that Lost was a CINO. My exact words were: "and which has caused CINO's to argue abortion to be a lesser issue than the DP, war and other issues." You assumed I was referring to her. I wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariaane Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 [quote name='MissyP89' post='1871450' date='May 20 2009, 05:41 AM']Doesn't mean that there still weren't false accusations brought against her.[/quote] There were no false allegations brought against her. hot stuff simply has read something into my post which doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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