Mystical Theology

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='mortify' post='1875613' date='May 26 2009, 01:06 PM']I'm a bit weary to read anything by Thomas Merton... didn't he encourage Buddhist like meditation?[/quote]

Stay away from his later books, but from all of the research I've done on him, his early works are definitely solid and good to read.

[kafka]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1875698' date='May 26 2009, 02:10 PM']Yes.

My Godmother and I have been studying it for the past year... just reading it together and discussing things I don't quite understand. Everyone should have a copy. It is very easy to read and it just lays everything out there. I haven't ever encountered another book like it.[/quote]
lol. Everyone should own a copy? That's a bit of a stretch



I was having a hard time comprehending you studying those books. Not that you arent intellegent enough, but I get the sense that they are more useful for priests and religious who have to direct souls.

I believe Lagrange was influenced by Arintero. I've read some of Lagrange and I have mixed feelings about him.

Anyhow, those are like manuals, Mort is looking for an introductory work.

Edited May 27, 2009 by kafka

[TotusTuusMaria]

I am not intelligent enough to read it on my own, and the one I read it with acknowledges that neither is she intelligent enough to grasp or even comment on a lot of what we read as we have never experienced it and even if she has I think she is far too humble to admit to understanding what she experienced and so she would never seek to try to instruct me or even comment on certain parts

That being said though,

I disagree very much that these books are more useful to just priests and religious. What you study in these books is a science: the science of the saints...the science of holiness...the science of perfection. And since we are all called to that we will [u]all[/u] find it most useful to study it.

Tanquerey acknowledges the usefulness of the the study of Ascetical Theology for the faithful. He gives these reasons 1) stimulates and sustains the desire in them for perfection as well as gives them a definitive knowledge of the Christian life and of the means which enable them to perfect it. 2) even when one has a spiritual guide, the reading of a good Ascetical Theology faciliates and completes spiritual direction. One knows better what must be told in confession and in direction and it helps one to retain what one's advisor says. 3) if a spiritual guide cannot be had or it must be done at rare intervals then a treatise on the spiritual life, will in a way, take the place of spiritual direction.

And St. Teresa of Avila confirms in the Interior Castle and in her Autobiography that it is good for us to know about the mystical life and those stages of the spiritual life unknown to us as beginners (and I'm sure if you are beyond such a stage then it is still good for you to know what lay ahead)

I have received so much help from the book... and if not everyone should own it they should at least be taught what it contains or read it or like book. Not every person is blessed with a spiritual director, however every person is called to holiness. These books are especially helpful to those without such directors. How is one to reach holiness without such a guide to direct them on that path which is unknown and can be, at times, dangerous? Through spiritual reading. Through books like these.

It was spiritual reading that brought about the major conversions of St. Ignatius, St. Teresa of Avila, and St. Augustine, and which even led them on to the highest degrees of perfection. Everyone should take up spiritual reading as everyone should be instructed on the means to perfection... considering we are all called to it... not just priests and religious.

And it seems before Vatican II books like these were much more readily available and the faithful were instructed much more so then now on the spiritual life. That is not so much done anymore. We encounter it in the lives of the saints, but even after reading them I find that I lack the details ... what is contemplation? what is mental prayer? what are the methods? why? what is the state of my soul? where am I? what will be the temptations I will encounter? what should I be aware of? And not one saint addresses all of these questions and the many more I have. Tanquerey though has obviously studied this for many, many years and, in my opinion, has done a fantastic job in gathering all of the great "masters" on these many matters together... and I believe he probably had an extraordinary prayer life himself. And in times like these where directors are scarce and good directors even more so it is to books like these, although originally intended primarily (although not solely) for priests and seminarians, that we must turn.

I haven't read Lagrange and I doubt I will probably ever find myself even flipping through or reading anything but perhaps the work I mentioned.

It was suggested to me along with Mystical Evolution. I have just been able to glance over them. I can't comment, agree, or disagree on any mixed feelings you might have on him.

EDIT: I just realized that perhaps you thought I was suggesting Lagrange to you, as I did quote you in my reply. I wasn't. I was just suggesting it for the op and as another book on the mystical life. I have been trying to think of it since I originally posted and it came to me as I was replying to you.

Edited May 27, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1875525' date='May 26 2009, 12:32 PM']I would advise you, if interested in mystical theology in general, not to necessarily stick with just Teresa and John. Don't get me wrong-- they're definitely classics and they're great. But there is whole plethora of Saints with a background in mystical theology that you really shouldn't miss. I know I mentioned the 12th century earlier, which was huge in mystical theology, with big names like St. Bernard of Clarvioux, St. Aelred, and St. Bonaventure. Go back even further you have folks like St. Gregory the Great, who had a deep mystical theology as well.

There's a great history to mystical theology that is beyond simply Teresa and John.[/quote]

I agree.

[kafka]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1876486' date='May 27 2009, 05:03 AM']I am not intelligent enough to read it on my own, and the one I read it with acknowledges that neither is she intelligent enough to grasp or even comment on a lot of what we read as we have never experienced it and even if she has I think she is far too humble to admit to understanding what she experienced and so she would never seek to try to instruct me or even comment on certain parts

That being said though,

I disagree very much that these books are more useful to just priests and religious. What you study in these books is a science: the science of the saints...the science of holiness...the science of perfection. And since we are all called to that we will [u]all[/u] find it most useful to study it.

. . .

EDIT: I just realized that perhaps you thought I was suggesting Lagrange to you, as I did quote you in my reply. I wasn't. I was just suggesting it for the op and as another book on the mystical life. I have been trying to think of it since I originally posted and it came to me as I was replying to you.[/quote]
I guess I meant to speak in more general terms. Generally, I think the lay Faithful should rely on Sacred Scripture and a few spiritual books they are attracted to throughout life. Those manuals arent necessary though I have no qualms with certain people wanting to study this subject more in depth such as yourself.

I get the sense that the best way to learn mystical theology is simply to live it and experience it. Saint Faustina never studied the manuals, yet she was expressed the mystical life in her diary in the most elegant and insightful of ways, even enough to impress some learned theologians who reviewed her case.

[TotusTuusMaria]

I disagree with you on some points (agree on others), but we'll just have to agree to disagree for the sake of keeping the thread on topic.

[kafka]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1877078' date='May 28 2009, 01:49 AM']I disagree with you on some points (agree on others), but we'll just have to agree to disagree for the sake of keeping the thread on topic.[/quote]
no problem. Just remember some of the assertions of these theologians (Tanquerey, Orintero, Lagrange) or any theologian may be flawed or lacking in some ways. So read them critically, and weigh their works against the flawless Deposit of Faith. Their works may contain misunderstandings, minor errors and limitations. Plus a lay person delving into these long treatises/manuals might fall into delusion and/or confusion.

That is why I mentioned and recommend Sacred Scripture or the classics 'Imitation of Christ' 'Way of Perfection' 'Seeds of Contemplation' Sacred Scripture is flawless and infallible. The classics have the support of the sensus fidelium etc. etc. etc.

Sorry I had to get in the last word. I have a few years on you

Edited May 28, 2009 by kafka