Is This Girl Catholic?

[OraProMe]

This girl I know and I had a conversation and she wasn't sure if she was a proper Catholic or not. Basically, she was baptised but by a protestant minister. Despite her families protestantism they sent the girl to a Catholic school. In primary school she started going to communion and even confession with the other kids, she didn't know any better and the teachers did nothing. As she got older she started learning about the Church and decided Catholicism was the true faith. But now she isn't sure if she should stop going to communion and be formally accepted into the Catholic Church. She seems to think that because she's been baptized, doesn't deny any Catholic teaching and has received the sacraments of the Eucharist and Penance that she's already in the catholic church.

I'm not really sure either way.
Help?

[Archaeology cat]

She would need to be confirmed, though, right?

[OraProMe]

She hasn't been confirmed because her reception of any of the catholic sacraments has been accidental. Due mainly to careless teachers.

I'm not sure about America, but in Australia confirmation comes after First Communion.

[Resurrexi]

The validity of her baptism needs to be investigated.

She probably needs to call the minister of Protestant community in which she was baptized and ask if baptisms there are administered using the formula "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" and if the water is applied while the words are being said. Perhaps her family videotaped the baptism ceremony, in which case she could look at the video herself to varify the validity of the baptism. She should then then go to the parish that she desires to join and tell the pastor what the Protestant minister said or what she saw in the video.

If the baptism is found to be invalid, she would then go through the process which would end in her baptism by a Catholic priest. If there is no way for her to investigate the validity of the baptism (e.g., if the Protestant community no longer exists or if she has no way of finding out in what community she was baptized) or if her baptism is doubtfully valid (e.g., one minister at the Protestant community used the trinitarian formula while the other used an invalid formula and there is no way of knowing which minister baptized her; or if it is discovered that the water was not always applied while the words were being said) then she would need to be conditionally baptised ("If you are not baptized, I baptise you..."). If her baptism is found to be valid, she would need to make a profession of faith and be confirmed.


The following is a decree of the Holy Office (predecessor to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) on the subject:

'To the question: "Whether baptism should be conferred conditionally on heretics who are converted to the Catholic religion, from whatever locality they come, and to whatever sect they pertain?" The reply is: "In the negative. But in the conversion of heretics, from whatever place or from whatever sect they come, inquiry should be made regarding the validity of the baptism in the heresy which was adopted. Then after the examination has been established in individual cases, if it is found either that none was conferred, or it was conferred without effect, they shall have to be baptized absolutely. But if according to circumstances and by reason of the localities, after the investigation has been completed, nothing is discovered in favor either of validity or invalidity, or, probable doubt still exists regarding the validity of the baptism, then let them be baptized conditionally, in secret. Finally, if it shall be established that it was valid, they will have to be received only for the profession of faith."' (Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3128)


Relevant canon law:

"§1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.
§2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.
§3. If in the cases mentioned in §§1 and 2 the conferral or validity of the baptism remains doubtful, baptism is not to be conferred until after the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person to be baptized, if an adult, and the reasons of the doubtful validity of the baptism are explained to the person or, in the case of an infant, to the parents." (Codex Iuris Canonici 869)

Edited May 29, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

That's what I told her, Resurrexi. But when I mentioned seeing the parish priest she freaked out. She thinks that the priest will be angry for going up and receiving communion all the time without being a "proper" Catholic.

She can't seem to see why she needs to stop after all these years. Her reasoning is "I
m baptised, I believe what the Church says and I've received communion. They can't do anything that hasn't already been done".

And yeah, she has a video and the baptism was done correctly.

[Resurrexi]

I'm sure she knew that the form of baptism is "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" when she watched the video, but she might not have known that the water has to be applied while the words are said (some Protetant groups will say "I baptize you..." then immerse the person, which, I'm pretty sure, would be invalid) so you might want to have her watch the video one more time, or, better yet, watch it with her.

Her reasoning doesn't really work since she can't receive Confirmation until she has formally made a profession of faith and her baptism has been registered. I don't know when Confirmation is administered Australia, but in the United States it is sometime during one's teens. I assume that your friend is around the same age as you, which means that, if Australia is anything like the United States, she is approaching the age for the reception of Confirmation or has already passed it (in which case she'd need to receive Confirmation as soon as possible).

Edited May 29, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1877778' date='May 29 2009, 05:40 AM']I'm sure she knew that the form of baptism is "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" when she watched the video, but she might not have known that the water has to be applied while the words are said (some Protetant groups will say "I baptize you..." then immerse the person, which, I'm pretty sure, would be invalid) so you might want to have her watch the video one more time, or, better yet, watch it with her.

Her reasoning doesn't really work since she can't receive Confirmation until she has formally made a profession of faith and her baptism has been registered. I don't know when Confirmation is administered Australia, but in the United States it is sometime during one's teens. I assume that your friend is around the same age as you, which means that, if Australia is anything like the United States, she is approaching the age for the reception of Confirmation or has already passed it (in which case she'd need to receive Confirmation as soon as possible).[/quote]


Yeah, she should have been confirmed about five years ago. But like I said, she doesn't have a baptism certificate so obviously that didn't happen.
That's very true about the immersion bit, next time I see her I'll ask if she noticed.

Does anyone know if she'll have to go through RCIA? I wouldn't want to inflict that on her.

[Resurrexi]

You might also want to tell her not to lose the video of the baptism since she'll need to show it to her priest.

Whether she'd have to go through RCIA would probably depend upon the decision of the priest. If she's been going to Catholic schools for years as you said she has, then she probably knows as much if not more than what she'd learn in RICA. She may want to ask the priest to test her over her knowledge of Catholicism so that she can bypass RCIA. If he were to decide that she needs to go through RCIA, it might not be a terrible experience for her. Depending on how close a friend you are to her, you could even volunteer to be her sponsor.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

Ahhh I'm not that close with her. It's just an interesting conversation we got into. But yeah, I'll pass it on to her.

[Hilde]

No, she'd have to be confirmed.

She can't receive communion until she's a member of the church.

If she can't prove she's baptized validly, I guess she'd have to get re-baptized.

Not all Protestant baptisms are done by the correct formula. Even in my church some have started calling them by other names.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1877776' date='May 29 2009, 06:30 AM']That's what I told her, Resurrexi. But when I mentioned seeing the parish priest she freaked out. She thinks that the priest will be angry for going up and receiving communion all the time without being a "proper" Catholic.[/quote]

If you know a priest personally that she could meet with, maybe she'd feel better about having the "come to Jesus" talk.

[prose]

Woah.. What????

Okay, first of all, with the exception of very specific sects, protestant baptisms are valid. Even full immersion. I have no idea why anyone would think otherwise.

Secondly, you do not need to be confirmed to receive the Eucharist. In fact, here, we have first Eucharist and reconciliation in grade 2 and no confirmation until at least grade 6. SO she should be totally comfortable going to her priest about getting confirmed or getting more information.

Hope this helps.

[prose]

I should add... as for RCIA, she would very likely have to attend it to be confirmed. Just like every other Catholic adult who wishes to get confirmed. It is a GOOD thing to attend RCIA, not an inconvenience. It is another opportunity to grow in faith. And even if she knows what some of the stuff being taught is, she may find that she will grow in new ways and knowledge of her faith.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='prose' post='1877871' date='May 29 2009, 05:07 PM']It is another opportunity to grow in faith. And even if she knows what some of the stuff being taught is, she may find that she will grow in new ways and knowledge of her faith.[/quote]
(or at least should be). I didn't go through RCIA when I converted, but I did sit in on it a couple of years later, and still got something out of it through looking at things a little differently or anew.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='prose' post='1877871' date='May 29 2009, 01:07 PM']I should add... as for RCIA, she would very likely have to attend it to be confirmed. Just like every other Catholic adult who wishes to get confirmed. It is a GOOD thing to attend RCIA, not an inconvenience. It is another opportunity to grow in faith. And even if she knows what some of the stuff being taught is, she may find that she will grow in new ways and knowledge of her faith.[/quote]
This alas, depends on the quality of RCIA teachers.