Wafa Sultan, Psychiatrist

[CatherineM]

Seems like if it was that big an issue, her opponents would have drug more up by now. She's got to have just as many people angry at her as Rushdee.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1878441' date='May 30 2009, 12:28 PM']Seems like if it was that big an issue, her opponents would have drug more up by now. She's got to have just as many people angry at her as Rushdee.[/quote]

Not only that, Catherine, but I imagine when an individual is given honor (such as [i]Time Magazine[/i] including her in their "People Who Shape the World" list) background checks are made. No one wants to be made a fool of. Besides, Ms. Sultan is not the ONLY woman (or individual) who has publicaly spoken out about the mistreatment of women in Islamic culture.

[CatherineM]

I would think the Time could still afford fact checkers. No matter what her background, two things we do know, she was born a female, and born a Muslim. Speaking out as she has takes courage.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1878314' date='May 30 2009, 12:48 AM']InFocus is a Muslim newspaper. OF COURSE they are going to bash Wafa Sultan!!![/quote]


What an ignorant thing to say.

[Hassan]

[quote name='the lords sheep' post='1878372' date='May 30 2009, 07:17 AM']Even with a lack of personal credibility, however, she does have some valid points. I don't know anyone that would deny that women in Islamic states are second class citizens, subject to laws that degrade them and sometimes leave them defenseless. From things as simple as in a trial (I believe it's according to Sharia law), there must be 2 female witnesses with the same story to be credible, but only one male. And according to the law in debate in Afghanistan, a man can force his wife to have sex with him every four days and regulates when/how often can leave her home.[/quote]


I don't think she does. She makes hyperbolic and overgeneralizing claims which serves as raw meat to certian people. I do think that the topics she covers are generally good. They require honesty and genuiness to have any impact though. Does anyone think that her attitude and tone makes Muslims more willing to consider the serious problem with the position of women in the Muslim world?

I liked this article. Hopefully it will Pass Erin's religious litmus test.

[i]The seductive and blinkered belligerence of Wafa Sultan.
By Stephen Julius Stein, Los Angeles Times
STEPHEN JULIUS STEIN is a rabbi at Wilshire Boulevard Temple, where he also directs inter-religious programming.
June 25, 2006
RECENTLY I WAS one of about 100 L.A. Jews invited to attend a fundraiser for a Jewish organization that seeks to counteract anti-Israel disinformation and propaganda. The guest speaker was Wafa Sultan, the Syrian American woman who in February gave a now legendary interview on Al Jazeera television, during which she said that "the Muslims are the ones who began the clash of civilizations" and "I don't believe you can reform Islam."

The audience warmly greeted Sultan, a psychiatrist who immigrated to Southern California in 1989. One of Time magazine's 100 "pioneers and heroes," she said she was neither a Christian, Muslim nor Jew but a secular human being. "I have 1.3 billion patients," she quipped early in her remarks, referring to the global Muslim population. Sultan went on to condemn inhumane acts committed in God's name, to denounce Islamic martyrdom and to decry terror as a tool to subjugate communities. Those statements all made perfect sense.

Then this provocative voice said something odd: "Only Arab Muslims can read the Koran properly because you have to speak Arabic to know what it means — you cannot translate it." Any translation is, by definition, interpretation, and Arabic is no more difficult to accurately translate than Hebrew. In fact, the Hebrew of the Bible poses many more formidable translation problems than Arabic. Are Christians and Jews who cannot read it ill-equipped to live by its meanings?

Another surprising remark soon followed: "All Muslim women — even American ones, though they won't admit it — are living in a state of domination." Do they include my friend Nagwa Eletreby, a Boeing engineer and expert on cockpit controls, who did not seek her husband's permission to help me dress the Torah scroll? Or how about my friend Azima Abdel-Aziz, a New York University graduate who traveled to Israel with 15 Jews and 14 other Muslims — and left her husband at home?

There is no subjugation in the homes of these and other American Muslim women I know. They are equal, fully contributing members of their families.

The more Sultan talked, the more evident it became that progress in the Muslim world was not her interest. Even more troubling, it was not what the Jewish audience wanted to hear about. Applause, even cheers, interrupted her calumnies.

Judea Pearl, an attendee and father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, was one of the few voices of restraint and nuance heard that afternoon. In response to Sultan's assertion that the Koran contains only verses of evil and domination, Pearl said he understood the book also included "verses of peace" that proponents of Islam uphold as the religion's true intent. The Koran's verses on war and brutality, Pearl contended, were "cultural baggage," as are similar verses in the Torah. Unfortunately, his words were drowned out by the cheers for Sultan's full-court press against Islam and Muslims.

My disappointment in and disagreement with Sultan turned into dismay. She never alluded to any healthy, peaceful Islamic alternative. Why, for example, didn't this Southern California resident mention the groundbreaking efforts of the Islamic Center of Southern California, the leading exemplar of progressive Muslim American life in the United States? Why didn't she bring up the New Horizon School-Pasadena that the center started, the first Muslim American school honored by the U.S. Department of Education as a National Blue Ribbon School?

You might wonder why a rabbi is so uneasy about Sultan's assault on Muslims and Islam. Here's why: Contrary to practically every mosque in the U.S., the Islamic Center has a regulation in its charter barring funding from foreign countries. As a result, it is an American institution dedicated to propagating an American Muslim identity. Maher and Hassan Hathout are the philosophical and spiritual pillars of the mosque. They also have been partners of Wilshire Boulevard Temple rabbis and others throughout L.A. for decades.

The Hathouts' mosque has twice endorsed pilgrimages to Israel and the Palestinian territories, its members traveling with fellow L.A.-area Jews and Christians. It invites Jews to pray with them, to make music with them, to celebrate Ramadan with them. This is the mosque whose day school teaches students about Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah alongside lessons in Arabic and the Koran. Recently, the Islamic Center joined the food pantry collective of Hope-Net, helping feed the hungry and homeless.

Make no mistake: I am not an Islamic apologist. But Sultan's over-the-top, indefensible remarks at the fundraiser, along with her failure to mention the important, continuing efforts of the Islamic Center, insulted all Muslims and Jews in L.A. and throughout the nation who are trying to bridge the cultural gap between the two groups. And that's one reason why I eventually walked out of the event.

Here's another: As I experienced the fervor sparked by Sultan's anti-Muslim tirade and stoked by a roomful of apparently unsuspecting Jews, I thought: What if down the street there was a roomful of Muslims listening to a self-loathing Jew, cheering her on as she spoke of the evils inherent in the Torah, in which it is commanded that a child must be stoned to death if he insults his parents, in which Israelites are ordered by God to conquer cities and, in so doing, to kill all women and children — and this imagined Jew completely ignored all of what Judaism teaches afterward?

In a world far too often dominated by politicians imbued with religious fundamentalism of all flavors — Jewish, Christian, Muslim — we need the thoughtfulness, self-awareness and subtlety that comes from progressive religious _expression. We have that in Judaism, in Christianity — and in Islam, right in our backyard. If only Sultan, applauded in many quarters yet miscast as a voice of reason and reform in Islam, were paying attention. [/i]

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1878470' date='May 30 2009, 02:16 PM']I don't think she does. She makes hyperbolic and overgeneralizing claims which serves as raw meat to certian people. I do think that the topics she covers are generally good. They require honesty and genuiness to have any impact though. Does anyone think that her attitude and tone makes Muslims more willing to consider the serious problem with the position of women in the Muslim world?

I liked this article. Hopefully it will Pass Erin's religious litmus test.

[i]The seductive and blinkered belligerence of Wafa Sultan.
By Stephen Julius Stein, Los Angeles Times
STEPHEN JULIUS STEIN is a rabbi at Wilshire Boulevard Temple, where he also directs inter-religious programming.
June 25, 2006
RECENTLY I WAS one of about 100 L.A. Jews invited to attend a fundraiser for a Jewish organization that seeks to counteract anti-Israel disinformation and propaganda. The guest speaker was Wafa Sultan, the Syrian American woman who in February gave a now legendary interview on Al Jazeera television, during which she said that "the Muslims are the ones who began the clash of civilizations" and "I don't believe you can reform Islam."

The audience warmly greeted Sultan, a psychiatrist who immigrated to Southern California in 1989. One of Time magazine's 100 "pioneers and heroes," she said she was neither a Christian, Muslim nor Jew but a secular human being. "I have 1.3 billion patients," she quipped early in her remarks, referring to the global Muslim population. Sultan went on to condemn inhumane acts committed in God's name, to denounce Islamic martyrdom and to decry terror as a tool to subjugate communities. Those statements all made perfect sense.

Then this provocative voice said something odd: "Only Arab Muslims can read the Koran properly because you have to speak Arabic to know what it means — you cannot translate it." Any translation is, by definition, interpretation, and Arabic is no more difficult to accurately translate than Hebrew. In fact, the Hebrew of the Bible poses many more formidable translation problems than Arabic. Are Christians and Jews who cannot read it ill-equipped to live by its meanings?

Another surprising remark soon followed: "All Muslim women — even American ones, though they won't admit it — are living in a state of domination." Do they include my friend Nagwa Eletreby, a Boeing engineer and expert on cockpit controls, who did not seek her husband's permission to help me dress the Torah scroll? Or how about my friend Azima Abdel-Aziz, a New York University graduate who traveled to Israel with 15 Jews and 14 other Muslims — and left her husband at home?

There is no subjugation in the homes of these and other American Muslim women I know. They are equal, fully contributing members of their families.

The more Sultan talked, the more evident it became that progress in the Muslim world was not her interest. Even more troubling, it was not what the Jewish audience wanted to hear about. Applause, even cheers, interrupted her calumnies.

Judea Pearl, an attendee and father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, was one of the few voices of restraint and nuance heard that afternoon. In response to Sultan's assertion that the Koran contains only verses of evil and domination, Pearl said he understood the book also included "verses of peace" that proponents of Islam uphold as the religion's true intent. The Koran's verses on war and brutality, Pearl contended, were "cultural baggage," as are similar verses in the Torah. Unfortunately, his words were drowned out by the cheers for Sultan's full-court press against Islam and Muslims.

My disappointment in and disagreement with Sultan turned into dismay. She never alluded to any healthy, peaceful Islamic alternative. Why, for example, didn't this Southern California resident mention the groundbreaking efforts of the Islamic Center of Southern California, the leading exemplar of progressive Muslim American life in the United States? Why didn't she bring up the New Horizon School-Pasadena that the center started, the first Muslim American school honored by the U.S. Department of Education as a National Blue Ribbon School?

You might wonder why a rabbi is so uneasy about Sultan's assault on Muslims and Islam. Here's why: Contrary to practically every mosque in the U.S., the Islamic Center has a regulation in its charter barring funding from foreign countries. As a result, it is an American institution dedicated to propagating an American Muslim identity. Maher and Hassan Hathout are the philosophical and spiritual pillars of the mosque. They also have been partners of Wilshire Boulevard Temple rabbis and others throughout L.A. for decades.

The Hathouts' mosque has twice endorsed pilgrimages to Israel and the Palestinian territories, its members traveling with fellow L.A.-area Jews and Christians. It invites Jews to pray with them, to make music with them, to celebrate Ramadan with them. This is the mosque whose day school teaches students about Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah alongside lessons in Arabic and the Koran. Recently, the Islamic Center joined the food pantry collective of Hope-Net, helping feed the hungry and homeless.

Make no mistake: I am not an Islamic apologist. But Sultan's over-the-top, indefensible remarks at the fundraiser, along with her failure to mention the important, continuing efforts of the Islamic Center, insulted all Muslims and Jews in L.A. and throughout the nation who are trying to bridge the cultural gap between the two groups. And that's one reason why I eventually walked out of the event.

Here's another: As I experienced the fervor sparked by Sultan's anti-Muslim tirade and stoked by a roomful of apparently unsuspecting Jews, I thought: What if down the street there was a roomful of Muslims listening to a self-loathing Jew, cheering her on as she spoke of the evils inherent in the Torah, in which it is commanded that a child must be stoned to death if he insults his parents, in which Israelites are ordered by God to conquer cities and, in so doing, to kill all women and children — and this imagined Jew completely ignored all of what Judaism teaches afterward?

In a world far too often dominated by politicians imbued with religious fundamentalism of all flavors — Jewish, Christian, Muslim — we need the thoughtfulness, self-awareness and subtlety that comes from progressive religious _expression. We have that in Judaism, in Christianity — and in Islam, right in our backyard. If only Sultan, applauded in many quarters yet miscast as a voice of reason and reform in Islam, were paying attention. [/i][/quote]

You've got some good research skills to track this down! I was googling to no avail. Especially an interesting article since it's written by a rabbi.

[HisChildForever]

What does Stein's opinion of Sultan have anything to do with the matters she discussed in the interview I have posted?

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1878857' date='May 30 2009, 11:24 PM']What does Stein's opinion of Sultan have anything to do with the matters she discussed in the interview I have posted?[/quote]


I don't know. If you're really curious you could read it while watching the video. Perhapse make a Compare/Contrast Chart to keep it straight.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1878866' date='May 30 2009, 11:39 PM']I don't know. If you're really curious you could read it while watching the video. Perhapse make a Compare/Contrast Chart to keep it straight.[/quote]

The article you provided failed to discuss the sexual horrors against children that occur in Islamic countries.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1878870' date='May 30 2009, 10:42 PM']The article you provided failed to discuss the sexual horrors against children that occur in Islamic countries.[/quote]


Are we going to enumerate everything not contained in the article?

Let me try.

The article I provided did not discuss the problems with micro financing in the developing world.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1878874' date='May 30 2009, 11:46 PM']Are we going to enumerate everything not contained in the article?

Let me try.

The article I provided did not discuss the problems with micro financing in the developing world.[/quote]

My point is that the article targeted Sultan herself and the way she lectures, NOT HER ACTUAL MESSAGE.

I would like for my thread to discuss THE CONTENT of her message, not just HER.

Such as the sexual crimes committed by Muhammad; such as her niece being forced into a marriage TO HER COUSIN at the age of 12...the cousin being OLDER THAN 40. She later committed suicide by BURNING HERSELF.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1878877' date='May 30 2009, 11:53 PM']My point is that the article targeted Sultan herself and the way she lectures, NOT HER ACTUAL MESSAGE.

I would like for my thread to discuss THE CONTENT of her message, not just HER.[/quote]

Actually the article did adress the content of her message.

[quote]Such as the sexual crimes committed by Muhammad; such as her niece being forced into a marriage TO HER COUSIN at the age of 12...the cousin being OLDER THAN 40. She later committed suicide by BURNING HERSELF.[/quote]



Yeah, no offense but you don't want to "discuss" the content of her message.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1878889' date='May 31 2009, 12:01 AM']Yeah, no offense but you don't want to "discuss" the content of her message.[/quote]

Do you have any thoughts on what happened to her niece?

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1878898' date='May 31 2009, 12:09 AM']Do you have any thoughts on what happened to her niece?[/quote]
Sure, it's aweful.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1878877' date='May 31 2009, 12:53 AM']My point is that the article targeted Sultan herself and the way she lectures, NOT HER ACTUAL MESSAGE.

I would like for my thread to discuss THE CONTENT of her message, not just HER.

Such as the sexual crimes committed by Muhammad; such as her niece being forced into a marriage TO HER COUSIN at the age of 12...the cousin being OLDER THAN 40. She later committed suicide by BURNING HERSELF.[/quote]

Keep in mind that sexual standards differ from culture to culture and from era to era. Our Lady was 12 or a year or two older when she married St. Joseph who has always been considered to be way over 40 at the time of the birth of Jesus. While their relationship was of course, not sexual, their society would not have been appalled if it was. Cousin-marriage is a longstanding tradition in many Western socities and has only fallen out of style in the last 100 years or so, as you know if you've ever seen Gone With the Wind! Arranged marriage is also not condemned at all by the Church, although forced marriage definitely is

Edited June 1, 2009 by Maggie