Wafa Sultan, Psychiatrist

[Hassan]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1882057' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:26 AM']Oh, and I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine we'd find a higher incidence of girls being married at younger ages in societies where there is a higher incidence of maternal mortality during childbirth.[/quote]


That would make sense

[dominicansoul]

yeah, i've heard about all that on St. Joseph, but I've never thought of him as an old man, or married before, or a widower. I know we will probably never know until we get to Heaven, but I like to think of him as young and a virgin. And young men die... who knows? I'm sure there were many ways they could bite the dust back in those times...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1882057' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:26 AM']Oh, and I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine we'd find a higher incidence of girls being married at younger ages in societies where there is a higher incidence of maternal mortality during childbirth.[/quote]

those poor girls!

my grandparents were married very young by today's standards... my grandma was barely 14 and married my grandpa who was about 19...

she started having children immediately, one after another. Can you imagine being only 14 years older than your first child?

I know it happens a lot in our society, with girls getting pregnant very very young outside of marriage, too...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1882088' date='Jun 3 2009, 05:58 PM']yeah, i've heard about all that on St. Joseph, but I've never thought of him as an old man, or married before, or a widower. I know we will probably never know until we get to Heaven, but I like to think of him as young and a virgin. And young men die... who knows? I'm sure there were many ways they could bite the dust back in those times...[/quote]
True.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1882093' date='Jun 3 2009, 06:03 PM'] those poor girls!

my grandparents were married very young by today's standards... my grandma was barely 14 and married my grandpa who was about 19...

she started having children immediately, one after another. Can you imagine being only 14 years older than your first child?

I know it happens a lot in our society, with girls getting pregnant very very young outside of marriage, too...[/quote]
I know. I really can't imagine having a child that young. I also can't imagine not having access to good midwives or doctors during pregnancy & childbirth.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='musturde' post='1881765' date='Jun 3 2009, 03:00 AM']This video did not blame the issue on the religion. You've disproved me by showing that there is a 10 year old case and helped strengthen my previous argument all in one video.[/quote]

I guess I watched a different video, because in the one I watched they discussed Sharia law - which is based on the Koran. There is more than just one 10 year old case in Yemen, the video explained that more than half of the young girls there are married off to older men at such young ages.

[musturde]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1882114' date='Jun 3 2009, 01:27 PM']I guess I watched a different video, because in the one I watched they discussed Sharia law - which is based on the Koran. There is more than just one 10 year old case in Yemen, the video explained that more than half of the young girls there are married off to older men at such young ages.[/quote]

Yes but the video did not blame this issue on Islam or Sharia law. Sharia law was mentioned during the divorce. HisChildForever, you're not seeing the point. It doesn't matter if your right on the specifics of the video or wrong. The point I was making, which you're still avoiding, is that other cultures marry at younger ages. There are Christians that marry very young as well. You can't blame this on Islam. I don't know why you insist so much on doing this. Just have more of an open mind...

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='musturde' post='1882300' date='Jun 3 2009, 05:58 PM']Yes but the video did not blame this issue on Islam or Sharia law. Sharia law was mentioned during the divorce. HisChildForever, you're not seeing the point. It doesn't matter if your right on the specifics of the video or wrong. The point I was making, which you're still avoiding, is that other cultures marry at younger ages. There are Christians that marry very young as well. You can't blame this on Islam. I don't know why you insist so much on doing this. Just have more of an open mind... [/quote]

I am not avoiding that subject, I am pointedly ignoring it because it has nothing to do with this thread. For the tenth time, this thread is about WOMEN in ISLAMIC SOCIETY.

[Ivri Haza]

[quote name='musturde' post='1881759' date='Jun 3 2009, 03:33 AM']My point is that a "10 year old" would probably not be married in the Middle East...If there's proof that there's an incredible amount of these cases, i'd be interested in checking it out.[/quote]

[url="http://marriage.about.com/od/arrangedmarriages/a/childbride.htm"]child brides & forced marriages[/url]

[quote]Egypt, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Pakistan, India, and the Middle East: In the rural villages of these countries many young girls are rarely allowed out of their homes unless it is to work in the fields or to get married.

These uneducated girls are often married off at the young age of 11. Some families allow girls who are only 7 years old to marry. It is very unusual for a girl to reach the age of 16 and not be married.

In Afghanistan , it is believed that between 60 and 80 percent of marriages are forced marriages.

Even though the legal age to get married in Egypt is 16, and in India and Ethiopia, the age is 18, these laws are quite often ignored.[/quote]

[url="http://www.iwhc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3487&Itemid=629"]physical and mental health issues in child brides[/url]

[quote]Because their bodies (bone structure, pelvis, reproductive organs) are not yet fully developed, girls ages 14 and younger run a very high risk of complications in pregnancy and childbirth compared with older adolescents.

Prolonged and obstructed labor, which is common among pregnant young adolescents, can lead to hemorrhage, severe infection, and maternal death. This is especially true for girls who experience additional pregnancy-related complications such as eclampsia. Those who survive may suffer from obstetric fistula,a debilitating condition that causes chronic incontinence and results in shame and social isolation.[/quote]


[quote]Girls who are married at a very young age experience related educational, social, and personal disadvantages compared with those who marry later, including:

[list]
[*]greater control over the young bride by her husband and his family, including restrictions on her freedom of movement and her capacity to seek health care and family planning services;
[*]increased likelihood that she will experience domestic violence and sexual abuse;
[*]little if any schooling and little possibility of pursuing educational opportunities;
[*]limited capacity to enter the paid labor force and earn an independent income;
[*]greater personal insecurity in the face of the possibility of divorce or early widowhood; and
[*]social isolation from her own family, friends, and other social networks.
[/list][/quote]


[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm"]answering islam: child marriages, child brides, the example of muhamed[/url]

[url="http://www.unicef.org/childrenandislam/resources.html"]resources by unicef: children & islam[/url]

[quote][i]Child marriage is a violation of human rights, compromising the development of girls and often resulting in early pregnancy and social isolation. Young married girls face onerous domestic burdens, constrained decision-making and reduced life choices.[/i] Using data from the Demographic and Household Surveys, this publication estimates the prevalence of child marriage and seeks to identify and understand the factors associated with child marriage and cohabitation. The statistical linkages identified can help programmeers promote delayed marriage and use advocacy and behaviour-change campaigns to prevent child marriage.[/quote]

islam and children, sample video topics:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VfhK-nTXww"]young children indoctrinated in hate for jews and christians[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yncV2AYGA8Y"]young children prepared as terrorists & suicide bombers for glory of al'lah: video 1[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHZavqUqtP4"]young children prepared as suicide bombers for glory of al'lah: video 2[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5SpYbW1NaE"]female genital mutilation in children[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=rACj2_7_orY"]the violent oppresion of woman in islam [[b]strong content--not suitable for minors[/b]][/url]



+ ivri

[Ivri Haza]

[quote name='musturde' post='1881753' date='Jun 3 2009, 03:18 AM']I am not attacking you as a villain. I just think you're going about this situation in the wrong way.

You're oversimplifying the problem. Instead of saying, "I disagree with countries that enforce Sharia law", or "I simply think this specific country has an odd culture", you have blamed the entire issue on a religion.[/quote]


shari'a is islamic religious law. as catholics have the catechism muslims have sha'ria. the member is corect in pointing this as a problem stemming from religion. the word meaning of shari'a is [i]pathway[/i]. pathway to following islam.

[Ivri Haza]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1881294' date='Jun 2 2009, 05:08 PM']bashing does not equal exposing truth...[/quote]

to muslims it does. islam doesnt allow for critical analysis or questioning. as the qur'an is al'lah's holy and perfect word what is there to question or expose?

[Ivri Haza]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1881302' date='Jun 2 2009, 05:15 PM']I'm not a Muslim and you know that perfectly well. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have what the contemporary world would see as sexist elements in it. That doesn't mean they are wrong, but it does mean the conflict with modern assumptions and philsophies to an extent.[/quote]


can you give examples of sexism in christianity and judaism that are equal to that in islam?

+ ivri

[Ivri Haza]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1881306' date='Jun 2 2009, 05:17 PM']Actually I have said that they need to be corrected (in fact I said I felt the world would be a better place if people left ideologies, like Islam Christianity and Judaism, behind) and just on the last page I posted a long article by a Muslim man trying to end stoning and other formes of corporal punishment in the Islamic world.[/quote]


does the man live in the islamic world or does he live in a democratic nation where he's free to propose such progressive ideas?

+ ivri

[Ivri Haza]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1881316' date='Jun 2 2009, 05:21 PM']Perhapse, but I like to give people the benefit of a doubt.[/quote]


everyone except dr. wafa sultan?

[Ivri Haza]

[quote][quote name='Maggie' post='1881175' date='Jun 2 2009, 01:57 PM']
I wasn't referring specifically to just Catholic marriages. I'm mostly familiar with cousin-marriage in Protestant and/or secular contexts. [/quote]

im not familiar with protestant inter-family marriage. do you have any statistics on the number of cases there might be or and how widespread is this practice across the world?

This thread has gotten really snarky! Let's cool off. HCF maybe you can start us off really discussing the video. What do you think about it? You see IMHO there's not much to say about it or discuss - who is honestly in favor of brutalizing women? So it seems (just seems) like our discussion is supposed to be about how horrible Islam is. In that way I can kind of understand why Hassan would get frustrated.
[/quote]


im confused. the person you are telling to start off a discussion of women's rights abuses in islam, she is the one who started the discussion with the video,,,isn't she? you are asking what does she think about it but i think she is the one who posted the video with her own views on the subject of women in islam. she said she is interested in the general topic of women's rights. this is the same person isn't she? you said this is about talking horrible about islam but the video is about some parts of islam culture that are horrible,,,how can we ignore it?? sometimes there are bad things in the world we have to talk about it. if catholics do bad things everyone talks about it. this is their right, isn't it so? if politicians, barack obama, george bush, presidents of iran & china, does things we dont like we talk about it, isn't it so? this is our right isn't it? why can we not talk about bad parts of islam,,,especially when things are happening in so many places where there are muslims,,,nigeria, indonesia, sudan, middle east,,,can we ignore it? we should love the world & care for the world & expose evils in the world,,,even to bring light to the world it means exposing the darkness. even to get cured of a sickness by the doctor it means the doctor has to tell us some bad news, something we don't want to hear. but he has to save us doesn't he,,, becuase he cares for his patients? if we ignore the darkness then we leave victims alone with their injustices, their shame, we leave them alone in darkness, without anyone to speak for them. if you suffered in darkness maggie would you want someone to be a voice for you? is this the correct thing to do? or should we stay silent, so muslims won't feel offended? so hassan wont be angry with wafa sultan and hischildforever. is something in the world important enough for you to speak out, maggie? is there anything? even jesus christ called us all sinners. he used strong language like "serpents" and "brood of vipers" to those who did evil. he said things like "woe to you". tough talk. should we do less when we see injustice and evil, especially for women who are the backbone of human society, and children who are the treasures?

+ ivri

[Ivri Haza]

[quote name='musturde' post='1882300' date='Jun 3 2009, 06:58 PM']point I was making, which you're still avoiding, is that other cultures marry at younger ages. There are Christians that marry very young as well. You can't blame this on Islam. I don't know why you insist so much on doing this. Just have more of an open mind... [/quote]

can you share references of christians children marry at ages 9, 10, 11? you can be right but i myself don't know about it. is this a practice in modern times or recent modern times? one more thing,,,do you understand islamic religion and islamic culture are not diferent forms? it isnt like in north america with seperation of religion and government. islam is religion. islam is government. islam is socity. islam is culture. islam is education. islam is dress and hygiene practice. islam is marriage rules. islam is raising of children, household issues. islam is law, legal practices. islam is food and diet, islam is everything. ths is the reason for shari'a, also called "the path". shari'a is the path of islam for every muslim. i think for noth american, european, modern progresive societies you cant understand this. you cant.

+ ivri