OraProMe Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='musturde' post='1887905' date='Jun 10 2009, 04:07 PM']I guess I remembered my theology class wrong.... But if the accidents are the wine and the substance is Jesus, isn't it still fully wine and fully God? Is this example correct? Accidents = body Substance = soul[/quote] You used to be a eucharistic minister and you don't even understand the doctrine of transubstantiation? A perfect example of why extra ordinary eucharistic ministers should not be used in regular parishes. edit: Please don't take that personally, I could use any lay eucharistic minister to make my point Edited June 11, 2009 by OraProMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1887905' date='Jun 10 2009, 05:07 PM']I guess I remembered my theology class wrong.... But if the accidents are the wine and the substance is Jesus, isn't it still fully wine and fully God? Is this example correct? Accidents = body Substance = soul[/quote] This should help you [url="http://www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/substacc.html"]http://www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/substacc.html[/url] If you have any more questions I can look up Ratzinger's response in "God and the World" and quote it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1887994' date='Jun 10 2009, 08:01 PM']You used to be a eucharistic minister and you don't even understand the doctrine of transubstantiation? A perfect example of why extra ordinary eucharistic ministers should not be used in regular parishes. edit: Please don't take that personally, I could use any lay eucharistic minister to make my point [/quote] No offense, and I mean that because I really do respect you, but I'm not sure if anyone really understands it. I just mean that I don't know if an inherently Aristotelian forumulation is even relevant to us today. I mean, and I'm no expert on Aristotelian philosophy by any means, how would his substance/accident categories handle our modern understanding of matter (for example electrons)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1888089' date='Jun 10 2009, 07:22 PM']No offense, and I mean that because I really do respect you, but I'm not sure if anyone really understands it. I just mean that I don't know if an inherently Aristotelian forumulation is even relevant to us today. I mean, and I'm no expert on Aristotelian philosophy by any means, how would his substance/accident categories handle our modern understanding of matter (for example electrons)?[/quote] Although I admit that I am not a fan of Aristotle or his philosophical theories; nevertheless, I do not believe that his views on substance, which for him (and for Aquinas as well) is a metaphysical reality (i.e., it is beyond physics), would be touched by modern views about matter, because metaphysics and physics are two different levels of abstraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1888089' date='Jun 10 2009, 09:22 PM']No offense, and I mean that because I really do respect you, but I'm not sure if anyone really understands it. I just mean that I don't know if an inherently Aristotelian forumulation is even relevant to us today. I mean, and I'm no expert on Aristotelian philosophy by any means, how would his substance/accident categories handle our modern understanding of matter (for example electrons)?[/quote] I didn't mean "understand" in a scientific sense as transubstantiation is a miracle and can only be explained by the power of God. But to state that "it's fully wine and fully Jesus" is a protestant view of the Eucharist. The Catholic doctrine (I'm sure you know) is that only the appearance of bread and wine remain. I'm just shocked that a eucharistic minister doesn't know this, I'm a little biased though. Edited June 11, 2009 by OraProMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) i wonder if the Lord joked when he preached...??? if He did, Scripture certainly doesn't record this... this isn't to say that Our Lord never laughed... I'm sure He did... but when it comes to Holy Mass... how many people were telling jokes or clapping their hands at the foot of the cross, or applauding themselves or singing happy birthday? When did the attention turn from Our Lord and upon ourselves? I don't have a problem with priest telling a joke to get a point across in his homily, but in a parish, there is a priest who is constantly in a humorous state. He'll interrupt the Mass with little barbs here and there. What irritates me is that people actually laugh. There's nothing funny about it...it's ridiculous... Edited June 11, 2009 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1888117' date='Jun 10 2009, 09:48 PM']i wonder if the Lord joked when he preached...??? if He did, Scripture certainly doesn't record this... this isn't to say that Our Lord never laughed... I'm sure He did... but when it comes to Holy Mass... how many people were telling jokes or clapping their hands at the foot of the cross, or applauding themselves or singing happy birthday? When did the attention turn from Our Lord and upon ourselves? there's nothing to joke about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass... I have a priest who is constantly in a humorous state. He'll interrupt the Mass with little barbs here and there. What irritates me is that people actually laugh. There's nothing funny about it...it's ridiculous...[/quote] I once went to a Mass where, right after the procession in, the Priest announced the birthdays of people in the parish in the upcoming week, and made the people whose birthday was coming up come to the front, and everyone sang happy birthday. That was one of the most uncomfortable Masses I have ever been to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 that happens way too often in the parishes around here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1888122' date='Jun 10 2009, 09:53 PM'] that happens way too often in the parishes around here...[/quote] Actually, that has just been dropped down to number 3. Number one is the time I accidentally went to the Polka Mass. Number two is the time I had to go to our "twin" parish, just after the diocese paired us up (and their priest was being moved and ours was taking over both parishes). There were a few other people from my parish there, and we all recieved death glares throughout most of the Mass. Not to mention the drum set was given a more prominent position by the altar than the tabernacle. Overall, that place just gave me the heebie-jeebies! Edited June 11, 2009 by MissScripture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1888112' date='Jun 10 2009, 09:42 PM']I didn't mean "understand" in a scientific sense as transubstantiation is a miracle and can only be explained by the power of God. But to state that "it's fully wine and fully Jesus" is a protestant view of the Eucharist. The Catholic doctrine (I'm sure you know) is that only the appearance of bread and wine remain. I'm just shocked that a eucharistic minister doesn't know this, I'm a little biased though.[/quote] It's fine, I'm not taking it personally. I learned and understood this a year ago. I'm just rusty on the philosophical aspect of it. Btw, thanks for the website Hassan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takebacktonight Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I once went to a mass where the priest broke out into "My Wild Irish Rose" at the end. Not only this, but he was singing off key and swaying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='musturde' post='1887905' date='Jun 10 2009, 06:07 PM']I guess I remembered my theology class wrong.... But if the accidents are the wine and the substance is Jesus, isn't it still fully wine and fully God? Is this example correct? Accidents = body Substance = soul[/quote] It's misleading to describe it as "fully" wine because that's implying that it's just as much wine after the consecration as it was before. Rather, it's simply the physical appearance that remains. You can only say it's fully God... besides, what more would you want to receive? The body and soul metaphor might help with contemplating the mystery, but it falls very short because bread and wine do not have a soul, nor even the spirit of life like an animal would have (save possibly for what's left of the yeast in the wine). I'm not sure that there are any good metaphors for the Eucharist. I think the best you can do is contemplate God's own words to Moses, "I Am." [quote name='Noel's angel' post='1887934' date='Jun 10 2009, 07:05 PM']Wow. If a homily lasted that long here, the priest would get stoned. In a neigbouring parish one of the priests was told by his congregation to simply stop preaching a homily or else they'd go elsewhere...the Mass lasts 25 mins in that parish now...[/quote] Maybe those priests need to recognize that it's better to be stoned on earth than for their skulls to pave the road to hell (props to St. John Chrysostom for the illustration). If I were that priest, I'd invite the whole parish to go elsewhere... good riddance! Only four or five people out of 100 would actually leave over such an immature and silly complaint. The rest might actually learn something. Of course, the real complaint is not the length of the homily at all. It's not long homilies that people dislike: it's bad homilies! Believe it or not, most people showing up to Mass really do want to learn their faith and follow Christ with greater devotion, but they don't want to sit through lame, drawn out, pointless homilies. Edited June 11, 2009 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1888391' date='Jun 11 2009, 09:36 AM']It's misleading to describe it as "fully" wine because that's implying that it's just as much wine after the consecration as it was before. Rather, it's simply the physical appearance that remains. You can only say it's fully God... besides, what more would you want to receive? The body and soul metaphor might help with contemplating the mystery, but it falls very short because bread and wine do not have a soul, nor even the spirit of life like an animal would have (save possibly for what's left of the yeast in the wine). I'm not sure that there are any good metaphors for the Eucharist. I think the best you can do is contemplate God's own words to Moses, "I Am."[/quote] There are other ways to explain substance and accidents. Thomas Aquinas basically applied this to the Eucharist after reading Aristotle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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