Why Some Conservative Catholics Want To Stop

[cappie]

For a long time now, some conservative Catholics - most of them hardline traditionalists - have been discreetly slagging off the late Pope John Paul II. One priest I know grimaces every time his name is mentioned. He does not want him to be made a saint, not because he thinks he was a bad man, but because he thinks that, despite his heroic witness against communism, he damaged the Church.

I don’t endose these views: in fact, it seems perfectly obvious that the reign of John Paul II was one of slowly growing orthodoxy in the Church, nurtured by his Catechism and a series of magnificent encyclicals. And those Catholics who want to draw a sharp distinction between the agendas of John Paul and Benedict are overlooking the fact that the theological direction of the last pontificate owed an enormous amount to the current Holy Father, who would be horrified by Giunta’s article.

Yet this debate is clearly gathering pace. JPII loyalists are also on the warpath. George Weigel is using the Maciel scandal as a stick with which to beat this administration, not the last one. - Damian Thompson, telegraph.co.uk (click below for full article)

[url="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100006738/why-some-conservative-catholics-want-to-stop-pope-john-paul-ii-being-made-a-saint/"]LINK[/url]

[OnlySunshine]

I don't understand how anyone could think that he damaged the Church! He made it much stronger, IMHO. His witness to the faith and love in the Catholic Church is one that I remember all the time, and I miss him greatly. I'm one of the ones who hopes he becomes canonized.

[Thomist-in-Training]

I do not hope he becomes canonized. That's not the same as hoping he is not in heaven, nor will I be angry if he is canonized.

In the event though, I think a good time to start the process would have been 25 years after his death, with more time for 20/20 hindsight and settled emotions on all sides.

Some things that bother me are the fact that he kissed the Koran, permission for Communion in the hand and altar girls, the Assisi prayer meetings. The first and last of those things I haven't really read defences or discussions of from the "conservative" side, most articles are in rad trad land, so if anyone has a less biased article I am interested to read it, because I am not actually clear about what went on at Assisi.

Also, the mysteries of light bother me: because it's not clear whether they're expected to be optional or considered "strongly suggested and should be used when the Rosary is prayed in public," because they destroy the beautiful numerical symbolism of threes and 150 Aves for 150 Psalms, and because it's not really clear what "of light" means, unlike "joyful," "sorrowful," and "glorious."

I don't like people calling him "JP2." I understand in typing it's naturally faster, but I have often heard people do it in person as well, and it doesn't seem respectful.

God bless.

[Vincent Vega]

I don't like referring to papacies as "administrations".
We're not a government, nor do we belong to "parties" of any kind.
We are a Church. Our shepherd is put there by God, not by popular vote.
There should be no "for or against" any Pope; he is working to bring all of the Faithful to Heaven, and all of the unfaithful to the flock.
We should not be "for or against" the Pope, we should simply acknowledge him as the leader of the Church Militant and the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Perhaps female altar servers and communion on the hand weren't the best decisions ever made, but if that's the most "damage" ever done to the Church, I guess we're in good hands afterall.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='cappie' date='18 August 2009 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1250635354' post='1952190']
For a long time now, some conservative Catholics - most of them hardline traditionalists -
[/quote]
you can tell the REALLY fun articles when they start like that!!!!


I swear.. traddies are their own worst enemies many times.

Do I hope John Paul II becomes canonized? well yes. More importantly, I wish the will of God be done. If His will does not includes canonization for John Paul II, then so be it. His witness to the love of Christ will remain with people more than any title ever will.

[eagle_eye222001]

I'm in favor of waiting on consideration of being canonized as I think it's prudent to wait a bit of time to get a better look at the impact the person had.

Also, it should not be forgotten that JP2 did a lot of good. One being that he was a huge influence on bringing down communism in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. One of his major teachings was the Theology of the Body which will continue to play a big role in explaining the Church's stance on human sexuality.

edited for grammar.

Edited August 19, 2009 by eagle_eye222001

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='18 August 2009 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1250637851' post='1952230']
I do not hope he becomes canonized. ... Some things that bother me are the fact that he kissed the Koran, permission for Communion in the hand and altar girls, the Assisi prayer meetings. The first and last of those things I haven't really read defences or discussions of from the "conservative" side, most articles are in rad trad land, so if anyone has a less biased article I am interested to read it, because I am not actually clear about what went on at Assisi.

...

I don't like people calling him "JP2." [/quote]

As soon as I began reading the opening post I thought "I'll bet a lot of the problem is him kissing the Koran."

And I don't like calling him 'JP2" either. I call him J.P. the Great. hehe

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='18 August 2009 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1250638650' post='1952240']
I'm in favor of waiting on consideration of being canonized as I think it's prudent to wait a bit of time to get a better look at the impact the person had.
[/quote]
I agree. There is no need to rush the issue.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='18 August 2009 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1250638322' post='1952235']
I don't like referring to papacies as "administrations".
We're not a government, nor do we belong to "parties" of any kind.
We are a Church. Our shepherd is put there by God, not by popular vote.
There should be no "for or against" any Pope; he is working to bring all of the Faithful to Heaven, and all of the unfaithful to the flock.
We should not be "for or against" the Pope, we should simply acknowledge him as the leader of the Church Militant and the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Perhaps female altar servers and communion on the hand weren't the best decisions ever made, but if that's the most "damage" ever done to the Church, I guess we're in good hands afterall.
[/quote]


It's a good idea to remember that every saint made mistakes. Look at St. Teresa of Avila, for example. She entered the convent to become a nun so as to avoid marriage.

I'm in agreement with the decisions about female altar servers and communion on the hand. Just my personal, humble opinion that those really should never have been allowed, nor should the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion be allowed (and I am one, just so you know, but I'm giving up my commission in October when the current minister schedule ends ). Things that are allowed will always be abused, unfortunately.

I really admire Pope Benedict XVI for his desire to return to more traditional Catholicism. I know it's going to be met with great disapproval from those who have 'wandered off' so to speak, but I think it's necessary to regain the beautiful liturgy and language (Latin) of the universal Church. It was difficult for me to face the changes ahead, because I grew up in the Novus Ordo Church, but now that I have attended my first Latin Mass and continued to attend, I understand the Pope's desire to return, and I have this growing desire to have it happen.

Edited August 19, 2009 by MaterMisericordiae

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='18 August 2009 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1250638650' post='1952240']
I'm in favor of waiting on consideration of being canonized as I think it's prudent to wait a bit of time to get a better look at the impact the person had.

Also, it should not be forgotten that JP2 did a lot of good. One being that he was a huge influence on bringing down communism in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. One of his major teachings was the Theology of the Body which is will continue to play a big role in explaining the Church's stance on human sexuality.
[/quote]



I agree. Theology of the Body has done wonders for our faith.

[Thomist-in-Training]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' date='18 August 2009 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1250639992' post='1952254']
It's a good idea to remember that every saint made mistakes. Look at St. Teresa of Avila, for example. She entered the convent to become a nun so as to avoid marriage.

I'm in agreement with the decisions about female altar servers and communion on the hand. Just my personal, humble opinion that those really should never have been allowed, nor should the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion be allowed (and I am one, just so you know, but I'm giving up my commission in October when the current minister schedule ends ). Things that are allowed will always be abused, unfortunately.

I really admire Pope Benedict XVI for his desire to return to more traditional Catholicism. I know it's going to be met with great disapproval from those who have 'wandered off' so to speak, but I think it's necessary to regain the beautiful liturgy and language (Latin) of the universal Church. It was difficult for me to face the changes ahead, because I grew up in the Novus Ordo Church, but now that I have attended my first Latin Mass and continued to attend, I understand the Pope's desire to return, and I have this growing desire to have it happen.
[/quote]



My only objection to your comment is to your first line...
1. EverysaintmademistakesexceptOurLady! Just wanted to say that!
2. There is a big difference between mistakes one looks back on and repudiates in later life, and mistakes only OTHER people look back on and repudiate.
3. St. Teresa entered the convent to avoid hell, not marriage. No?

To USAirwaysIHS:

[quote]communion on the hand [wasn't] the best [decision] ever made, but if that's the most "damage" ever done to the Church, I guess we're in good hands afterall.[/quote]

I disagree with you VASTLY on this topic. Better a million sex scandals than one act of irreverence to Our Lord REALLY present on the earth. Don't tell me that some people really don't know that it is irreverent to receive communion in the hand. I know, because I used to be one of them. However, every bishop and priest who pressured to allow it or allowed it in his parish had been raised being taught what reverence to Our Lord's body means, and no one but protestants had thought about communion in the hand for a THOUSAND AND A HALF YEARS. Communion in the hand promotes disbelief in the Real Presence.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Thomist-in-Training

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='18 August 2009 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1250640203' post='1952258']


My only objection to your comment is to your first line...
1. EverysaintmademistakesexceptOurLady! Just wanted to say that!
2. There is a big difference between mistakes one looks back on and repudiates in later life, and mistakes only OTHER people look back on and repudiate.
[/quote]

Oops! LOL!

[ReinnieR]

IMO he should be made a saint.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 August 2009 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1250639774' post='1952252']
I agree. There is no need to rush the issue.
[/quote]

But the American in me wants it now. *sigh*

[CatherineM]

Good to know that when I receive communion in my hand, I'm worse than a million pedophiles.

By the way, I served the altar at times when the young gentleman who was assigned the task failed to show up, and that was long before John Paul was Pope.