Why Some Conservative Catholics Want To Stop

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='20 August 2009 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1250810511' post='1953451']
I'm making up the story about the Priest?
[/quote]
For all I know you could be making it up, because I don't know you from Adam.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 August 2009 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1250808706' post='1953427']it should be no surprise that the poor state of the liturgy in the Western Church has a detrimental impact on ecumenical relations with the Orthodox Churches.
[/quote]
Or maybe it's that the Eastern Churches have such a vehement disdain for the Western Church's liturgy.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='20 August 2009 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1250815819' post='1953504']
Or maybe it's that the Eastern Churches have such a vehement disdain for the Western Church's liturgy.
[/quote]

In case you didn't know, there are Western Orthdoox Christians who celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 August 2009 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1250816055' post='1953514']
In case you didn't know, there are Western Orthdoox Christians who celebrate the Tridentine Mass.
[/quote]
I actually did not know that.
Interesting.
In Latin?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Brigid' date='20 August 2009 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1250806725' post='1953392']
It's possible to be cautious without being neurotic. It's not very difficult, nor does it take much effort, for a person to check his hands for particles of Our Lord after receiving Him. I guess I see it as a way to show Him we care... He humbled Himself for us; it's the least we can do to make sure He is taken good care of.

Slightly more on topic (and referring to someone else's post)... I call him Papa John Paul. well, I call all the popes "Papa". I've always seen "JP2" as affectionate, rather than disrespectful. I like that so many buildings are being named after him, and I like that so many people love him. I know of many people who have been drawn deeper into their faith or have been deeply influenced because of his life.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i call Pope St. Pius X "Bepi".

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 August 2009 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1250802609' post='1953357']
The reduction of the Church's activities to that of an automaton is not biblical, nor is it patristic. There is no reason to rush the Latin Church's canonization of John Paul II.
[/quote]

I agree, but I also trust the Church as she is the Bride of Christ. There's no need to be anxious over these things.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Brigid' date='20 August 2009 - 06:18 PM' timestamp='1250806725' post='1953392']


Slightly more on topic (and referring to someone else's post)... I call him Papa John Paul. well, I call all the popes "Papa". I've always seen "JP2" as affectionate, rather than disrespectful. I like that so many buildings are being named after him, and I like that so many people love him. I know of many people who have been drawn deeper into their faith or have been deeply influenced because of his life.
[/quote]

iawtc

I don't see it is a cult of popularity. I see it as people- even young people being really touched by him. I have a rosary that was blessed by him during the year of the rosary and if I ever have a son I would love to name him after this wonderful man. He was more of a father to me than my own dad and I never even met JP2. If it is the will of God that he be declared a saint then so be it. I'd be surprised if it never happened but no matter what he will always be dear to me and a great many others, especially young people. The sacrifices that so many young people made and suffered so that they could see him at WYD are astonishing. Was that really just about seeing a "celebrity" or was it something far deeper than that? They were utterly drawn to him. I have the c.d. of songs sung at WYD iin Toronoto and there's one song that is so special to me because that's where Pope John Paul II says some brief moving words before the start of the song. There's also this very special quote of his that I haven't been able to say outloud with out crying, something that he said to a large group of young people. "Christ is calling you; the Church needs you; the Pope believes in you and expects great things of you!" He sure knew how to reach the hearts of young people. http://www.adoremus.org/6-72K.Jon.html

There's this lovely youtube video about him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEGCACesZII

Oh and here is something from my blog that I wrote over a year ago. http://childofourlady.blogspot.com/2007/10/witness-to-hope.html

[Maggyie]

I have to agree with the point about being uncomfortable with the "cult of personality" around John Paul II. This is one way where Benedict is a little bit healthier for the Church, I think - he has his fans but not so much of a "fan club" (and yes I know ironically there actually is a Pope Benedict XVI fan club!). But I mean more generally speaking, his work has less of a faddish aspect to it. A good example where this happened with John Paul II is with his literary efforts. He was not a good playwright or poet but serious Catholics still put on his plays or read his poems, not because they are effective literature but because they were written by "JPII."

Of course I love John Paul II with all his faults and I think one day he will be canonized. Sometimes I amuse myself by thinking what he will be made patron of - Poland? Duh. Young people? Married people? Vocations?

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='21 August 2009 - 12:27 AM' timestamp='1250825255' post='1953605']


I don't see it is a cult of popularity. I see it as people- even young people being really touched by him. I have a rosary that was blessed by him during the year of the rosary and if I ever have a son I would love to name him after this wonderful man. He was more of a father to me than my own dad and I never even met JP2. If it is the will of God that he be declared a saint then so be it. I'd be surprised if it never happened but no matter what he will always be dear to me and a great many others, especially young people. The sacrifices that so many young people made and suffered so that they could see him at WYD are astonishing. Was that really just about seeing a "celebrity" or was it something far deeper than that? They were utterly drawn to him. I have the c.d. of songs sung at WYD iin Toronoto and there's one song that is so special to me because that's where Pope John Paul II says some brief moving words before the start of the song. There's also this very special quote of his that I haven't been able to say outloud with out crying, something that he said to a large group of young people. "Christ is calling you; the Church needs you; the Pope believes in you and expects great things of you!" He sure knew how to reach the hearts of young people. http://www.adoremus.org/6-72K.Jon.html

There's this lovely youtube video about him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEGCACesZII

Oh and here is something from my blog that I wrote over a year ago. http://childofourlady.blogspot.com/2007/10/witness-to-hope.html
[/quote]


See, this is exactly why the process shouldn't be expedited. Large numbers of people have emotional reactions to John Paul II, are "touched" or "moved" by him. He was very charismatic, but this on its own does not count as heroic sanctity. It's great that he was a father figure for you, but that doesn't qualify as heroic sanctity, either. Strong feelings can, in fact, cloud over things and make an objective point of view more difficult.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Maggie' date='20 August 2009 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1250827605' post='1953639']
He was not a good playwright or poet but serious Catholics still put on his plays or read his poems, not because they are effective literature but because they were written by "JPII." [/quote]

Are you serious? He was not a good poet? Have you read A Place Within? His poetry is some of the most stunning of the 20th century, if you ask me. Even the translations have a beautiful quality to them. I can only imagine what they are like in the original Polish. His style was certainly unique, but I don't think that diminishes their quality, from a literary perspective, at all.

And I was very impressed with the Jeweler's Shop... the actual play, not necessarily individual performances.

[Lilllabettt]

Poetry is a lot like music ... same with playwriting. To a large degree it's a matter of "taste." Objective superiority is only demonstrated with the passing of time, if the work endures and becomes a "classic."

[Era Might]

[quote name='Maggie' date='21 August 2009 - 12:06 AM' timestamp='1250827605' post='1953639']
I have to agree with the point about being uncomfortable with the "cult of personality" around John Paul II. This is one way where Benedict is a little bit healthier for the Church, I think - he has his fans but not so much of a "fan club" (and yes I know ironically there actually is a Pope Benedict XVI fan club!). But I mean more generally speaking, his work has less of a faddish aspect to it. A good example where this happened with John Paul II is with his literary efforts. He was not a good playwright or poet but serious Catholics still put on his plays or read his poems, not because they are effective literature but because they were written by "JPII." [/quote]
Pope Benedict XVI is one of Pope John Paul II's strongest admirers, and indeed, one of the supporters for his canonization. And when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, he even wrote an introduction/interpretation of Pope John Paul II's "Roman Triptych" poem. Just because you don't like Pope John Paul II's literature doesn't mean other people don't. There are various Catholic Saints who wrote poetry that wasn't the greatest poetry as poetry, but Catholics still read it. I haven't read John Paul II's literary works, so I don't know if I like them or not. But he wouldn't be the first Saint whose poetry is read primarily because of his status as a Saint.

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='21 August 2009 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1250831495' post='1953682']
See, this is exactly why the process shouldn't be expedited. Large numbers of people have emotional reactions to John Paul II, are "touched" or "moved" by him. He was very charismatic, but this on its own does not count as heroic sanctity. It's great that he was a father figure for you, but that doesn't qualify as heroic sanctity, either. Strong feelings can, in fact, cloud over things and make an objective point of view more difficult.
[/quote]
If Pope John Paul II did not exemplify heroic virtue, then in my opinion, I don't know who does. He was a giant of the 20th century. When people look back on the 20th century, Pope John Paul II will stand out as one of the most notable men who stood up in witness to the person of Jesus Christ. It's hard to think of many people in the 20th century whose witness to Christ will be remembered more than Pope John Paul II's witness.

As far as excesses of emotions associated with some people who admire Pope John Paul II, this would not be unique to him. St. Paul, for example, had to tell people to chill out, because they were putting too much emphasis on the Apostles:

[quote]For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. What I mean is that each one of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius; lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.

--1Corinthians 1:11-15[/quote]

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Era Might' date='21 August 2009 - 02:50 AM' timestamp='1250833834' post='1953710']
If Pope John Paul II did not exemplify heroic virtue, then in my opinion, I don't know who does. He was a giant of the 20th century. When people look back on the 20th century, Pope John Paul II will stand out as one of the most notable men who stood up in witness to the person of Jesus Christ. It's hard to think of many people in the 20th century whose witness to Christ will be remembered more than Pope John Paul II's witness.

As far as excesses of emotions associated with some people who admire Pope John Paul II, this would not be unique to him. St. Paul, for example, had to tell people to chill out, because they were putting too much emphasis on the Apostles:
[/quote]

I didn't say he didn't exemplify heroic virtue. In my opinion he did. His perseverance in service to the Church in the midst of terrible suffering alone is enough for me. That witness was heroic, imho. Producing strong emotions (I did not say "excesses") in others does not disqualify someone for attainment of heroic virtue. But it doesn't qualify as heroic virtue either. In other words: it is not a popularity contest, nor should it be.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='21 August 2009 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1250831495' post='1953682']
See, this is exactly why the process shouldn't be expedited. Large numbers of people have emotional reactions to John Paul II, are "touched" or "moved" by him. He was very charismatic, but this on its own does not count as heroic sanctity. It's great that he was a father figure for you, but that doesn't qualify as heroic sanctity, either. Strong feelings can, in fact, cloud over things and make an objective point of view more difficult.
[/quote]

You're right that the feelings of admiration that people have for him don't make him virtuous, yet so many people admire him because of his heroic sanctity and the literary works that he wrote. I'm actually not a fan of everything that he wrote. There are people who genuinely do like at least some of his literary works and I don't see the harm in people being initially attracted to a literary work merely because he wrote it as long as they do not like and recommend them merely because he wrote them without evaluating them for themselves. There is the dnager of there being a popularity contest but I trust that in time that all of those in the church who do research and analyze him will evaluate him objectively.

[Norseman82]

FYI, as I recall, communion in the hand was approved in the 1970s under Paul VI, not John Paul II, so I don't see why this is relevant to the original topic.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_in_hand.htm